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Lauren Sommer 00:00:00 You're listening to Shortwave from NPR. Aaron Scott 00:00:06 Bulldogs have a look. You know, those wrinkles, those jowls that underbite. I just think smart smooshy face is smooshy even a word? Mp science correspondent Lauren Summer. Lauren Sommer 00:00:21 I think so. Aaron Scott 00:00:22 All right, then, a smooshy face that some people love. Lauren Sommer 00:00:26 But in January, something happened that got the attention of Bulldog owners everywhere. Quote 00:00:31 The breeding of British Bulldogs has been banned, apparently by the Oslo District Court in Norway. Lauren Sommer 00:00:38 A judge in Norway banned the breeding of Bulldogs there. Aaron Scott 00:00:41 Banned it why? Lauren Sommer 00:00:42 Well, because that smooshy face can come with some issues. Like this is what just a few minutes of running does to some Bulldogs. Aaron Scott 00:00:53 That does not sound very comfortable. Lauren Sommer 00:00:56 No. Bulldogs have very short Airways and they don't have a snout like other dogs. Their whole body has been made extremely compact. So many have serious breathing problems, not to mention other health issues that come with the breed. And that's what the judge was ruling on. Aaron Scott 00:01:12 So the judge was saying that the dogs are so unhealthy, it's actually not humane to breed them, essentially. Lauren Sommer 00:01:19 Yeah. I mean, humans decide what Bulldogs look like through selective breeding. They're not naturally like that, of course. And the question is whether that's okay if it comes with so many health problems that the dogs have to live with. And some of those problems also have to do with the fact that the breed is pretty inbred and it doesn't have a lot of genetic diversity. Aaron Scott 00:01:41 So today on the show, the debate over Bulldogs and their smooshy faces and how it's part of a larger discussion about the ethics of purebred dog breeding and the genetic health of our canine friends. I'm Aaron Scott, and you're listening to Shortwave, the daily science podcast from NPR. Sponsorship Ads 1 00:02:06 Life Kit is like your friend with really good advice. Can I really be Truthful? Yeah, it's just me and you, right? Well, sure. Three times a week, Life Kit is in your feeds with episodes on health, personal finance, personal growth and so much more. Listen to Life Kit from NPR Lauren Summer. Aaron Scott 00:02:26 I have to admit, I'm a bit of a late in life dog convert. It was a Corgi named Dakota that captured my heart. She was the runt of the litter and super compact. So she didn't have a lot of the leg and back problems that some corgis can deal with. But she did get me thinking a lot about how the things that people love about certain breeds are often the very things that can make those breeds unhealthy. And I mean, Corgi lovers are, well, let's just say very committed decorgies. And I'm guessing that Bulldog lovers are the same. Lauren Sommer 00:03:01 Yeah, very much so. A lot of Bulldog owners are very dedicated. And I met one. This is Rudy. You say, Hi, Rudy. Colleen Children lives in Oakland with three Bulldogs. There's Rudy and then Abby and Mojo. And her home is all about those dogs. There are dog portraits on the walls, Bulldog statues. I do. I absolutely love the breed. I can't imagine not having one or three. Aaron Scott 00:03:29 Okay. Clearly a fan for sure. Lauren Sommer 00:03:31 And she's had six Bulldogs over her lifetime. And she says they take a really involved owner because of some of their health issues. Like Bulldogs have those deep wrinkles on their faces and they have these floppy ears. And children says she has to clean them almost every day because if you don't, they get infected. And then they have a really hard time cooling themselves off because they can't breathe very efficiently. They cannot sustain heavy heat. We would never walk them if it was over 80 degrees or anything. You just have to be really careful because they do have that airway. Aaron Scott 00:04:05 Right. Not a dog you take to the park on a hot summer day. Lauren Sommer 00:04:08 Right. Because they're at risk of heat stroke. And some dogs have such serious breathing problems that they need surgery. One of children's dogs had to have its nasal openings widened and others had to have their soft pallet cut back to open up the airway. Aaron Scott 00:04:22 Wow. It sounds like some Bulldogs don't have Airways that function quite the way other dogs do, and that can be an expensive endeavor. Lauren Sommer 00:04:30 Yes. And I talked to a vet about that. Dr. Eric Olstad is an assistant professor at the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine. And the way he describes it, many Bulldogs have what he calls redundant tissue. Dr. Eric Olstad 00:04:43 How I describe this to patients is it's like moving from a four bedroom house with all the furniture into a one bedroom apartment, but you have all the same furniture. Aaron Scott 00:04:52 Yeah. That's an image. Lauren Sommer 00:04:54 Yeah. He also says they're compact bodies and large heads make it hard for Bulldogs to have puppies. Dr. Eric Olstad 00:05:00 They really can't give natural birth anymore. I have to do C sections on these dogs, but the monetary incentive for these breeders is so high that they can justify these added costs. These puppies can sell for anywhere from $3,000 per puppy. Aaron Scott 00:05:16 All right, Lauren, this is definitely showing me how drastically humans have changed the shape of the Bulldog if they depend on us just to reproduce. I mean, these puppies are completely divorced from evolution. Lauren Sommer 00:05:30 Right. And if you add up all these things, studies show that flat faced dogs, which are also known as brachycephalic dogs, are unhealthier in general, and that includes dogs like Pugs and French Bulldogs. And that's what prompted the animal welfare group in Norway to bring that court case, which focused on two breeds, Bulldogs and Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. And those spaniels have chronic heart and skull problems. Osail Roll Set is the CEO for the group that brought the case, the Norwegian Society for the Protection of Animals. Quote 00:06:00 We say that the dogs are our best friends, but we're not the Bulldog's best friend at all. If this was your best friend, you wouldn't want it to have all these conditions. You would want it to have a better life, she says. Lauren Sommer 00:06:12 They don't want Bulldogs to disappear. They want to start a conversation about making the breed healthier. Aaron Scott 00:06:18 Is breeding Bulldogs completely banned in Norway, then? Lauren Sommer 00:06:21 Well, the case is being appealed currently, and the ruling also didn't completely ban breeding them. It says breeding can take place to improve the health of the breed or bring in new genetic material. Aaron Scott 00:06:31 Okay, so what could be done to make the breed healthier and what are some of the changes they're suggesting? Lauren Sommer 00:06:38 Yeah, there's a few things that people are talking about. In December, the Australian Veterinary Association recommended that Bulldogs with short muzzles, spinal problems or breathing problems not be bred at all. And then there's a breeder in Switzerland who was concerned about the health issues, and she created a new breed called Continental Bulldogs. It's kind of less compact with a snout that's a bit longer. So it's kind of about accepting a Bulldog that looks a little bit less like the Bulldogs we think of today. Aaron Scott 00:07:08 I'm trying to imagine that at the Westminster Dog Show and how the judges are going to respond. Are other breeders open to changing the way the Bulldogs look? Lauren Sommer 00:07:19 Well, not exactly. The way Bulldogs look is controlled by the breed standard. It's kind of like the recipe for a Bulldog. It defines the Bulldogs look and temperament. And in the US, it's set by the Bulldog Club of America. And I spoke to the club's President, Jeff Ryman, and he said they've had essentially the same standard for Bulldogs for a century. Jeff Ryman 00:07:41 Changing the standard after 100 years is not necessary. We want to follow the standard, and we want to encourage and educate those that don't to follow the standard to help test their dogs. Then we get healthier dogs. Lauren Sommer 00:07:57 He says his group provides a list of recommended health tests for breeders to use, and his take is that Bulldog health problems are largely due to irresponsible breeders, not the actual look of the dog. Aaron Scott 00:08:09 So his argument is that it's the breeder's fault because they're not being careful enough. And breeding dogs with health problems? Lauren Sommer 00:08:17 Yeah, that's it. But there's evidence that suggests that's not the case. Bulldogs, like a lot of purebred dogs, are pretty inbred. They descended from a small group of dogs originally. And under pure bred dog rules, Bulldogs have what's called a closed stud book. It's a totally closed off group. So if you want a purebred Bulldog, it can only come from other purebred Bulldogs. So no other breeds can be mixed in. Aaron Scott 00:08:41 Yet no other dogs being mixed in means no new genetic material comes in either. So how in bread are they? Lauren Sommer 00:08:50 So on average, purebred dogs are as closely related as two sibling dogs that have an offspring together. Their genomes are that similar. Aaron Scott 00:09:00 Wow. Lauren Sommer 00:09:00 And Bulldogs are even more in bread than that. A study from the University of California, Davis, found there's probably not enough genetic diversity within Bulldogs right now to breed out the health problems, even if all breeders are trying. Aaron Scott 00:09:15 And that would imply it's not just bad breeders. Lauren Sommer 00:09:18 Yeah. And that's what Danica Banish, veterinary geneticist at UC Davis, told me. Danica Banish 00:09:23 Yeah. I don't think it's the breeders themselves. They're not necessarily trying to breed unhealthy dogs. It's the breed themselves that are unhealthy. And there isn't much that they can do about it within the context of the purebred breed. Aaron Scott 00:09:36 What would it take to get some new genetic material into the breed? Lauren Sommer 00:09:40 Yeah, in a few cases, purebred dog breeders have done something called out crossing. So Dalmatians are an example. They're really prone to bladder stones. And many years ago, a breeder bred a Dalmatian with a pointer to get some new genetics in there. And then they kept breeding the puppies with Dalmatians after that. So they still looked like Dalmatians, but it was pretty controversial. It took decades for them to be accepted as pure bred Dalmatians, and that was for something that was just kind of one genetic problem, not a whole suite of health problems they were trying to fix. Aaron Scott 00:10:13 Lauren, it's a troubling idea that our aesthetic opinions of what these dogs should look like and really, in many ways, our commitment to our dog being a part of this exclusive purebred club, all that means that these dogs have to suffer from all sorts of potentially painful health issues. So is there more pushback around this is the science advances? Lauren Sommer 00:10:38 Yeah. That's what I think is really interesting here because there's so much genetic information available right now that could help the dogs be healthier. Aaron Scott 00:10:47 And it seems like the question is, how should dog breeders use that? And does the pure bred dog system allow enough flexibility? Lauren Sommer 00:10:55 Yeah, I think that's what people are asking right now because a lot of people pick dogs because of how they look. Right. Not everyone thinks about their health problems or if you're getting a purebred dog, whether that breeder is using genetic tests or other tests to make sure these animals are healthy. It's the huge advances in genetic sequencing and technology over the last few decades that are really ushering in this conversation. And it's really raising questions about whether things should be done the way they've always been done. Aaron Scott 00:11:25 Thank you, Lauren. It's been great to talk dogs with you. Lauren Sommer 00:11:29 Thanks for having me. Aaron Scott 00:11:32 This episode was produced by Burley McCoy, edited by Stephanie O'Neill and fact checked by Katherine Cipher. The audio engineer was Patrick Murray. Gisele Grayson is our senior supervising editor, Neil Caruth is our senior director of on demand news programming, and Anya Grunman is our senior vice President of programming. I'm Aaron Scott. Thank you for listening to Shortwave, the daily science podcast from NPR. Sponsorship Ads 2 00:12:08 Hey, people, the Wait Wake up, Tell Me podcast had a brand new show on Wednesdays with me, Emma Choi. It's called Everyone and Their Mom. Whatever everyone is talking about, that's what we'll be talking about with waitweight panelists comedians you love and people you don't even know you love yet. Just listen to the wait wait don't tell me podcast from NPR wherever you get your podcasts and I'll be there every Wednesday two great shows in one feed.
Sponsorship Ads 1 00:00:00 On long shot season two Payback. Legendary women soccer coach Ansendorrens told me there are players he has paid to coach. Oh, what a finish by Jess McDonald and players he'd coach for free, but that he would pay to coach Jessica McDonald. I ran away from home when I was 17 years old. She's had some difficult moments in her life, but there's something inside the great athletes. That is why they're great. Mcdonald's first start for the US Women's National team. How about that? Listen to Payback on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcast wherever you get your podcast. Sponsorship Ads 2 00:00:35 What happens to athletes after they retire? And why is the transition away from sport so difficult for some? Hi, everybody. It's prime, the host of The Next Chapter with Crimson Sarikapat podcast presented by Baron Davis and Six Studios. In season two, I sit down with some of the best athletes in the world to talk about the challenges they face during and after retirement, including identity loss and finding a new purpose. Listen to The Next Chapter with Crimson Ripopat on the iHeartRadio App on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Josh 00:01:09 Hi, and welcome to The Short Stuff. I'm Josh and there's Chuck. And this is short stuff, as I said already, and this is short stuff. So let's go. Chuck 00:01:17 So when I was a kid, I don't know if your dad ever did this. Something tells me your dad may have had a brief foray into metal detecting. Josh 00:01:17 Yes. Chuck 00:01:17 It seemed to be maybe a little bit of a I don't know about fad or craze, if it was that widespread, but I know quite a few of us in our age group whose mothers and fathers, for some reason more fathers than mothers. And there are generally more mothers going seriously, like, you're going to spend 3 hours on the beach doing that, roaming around the beaches and forests of America with a metal detector, hoping to in my dad's case, I think he was probably hoping to strike it rich with some rare find. Josh 00:01:58 Yeah, I think all of them were secretly some of them might have tried to play like they were really just in for the science or whatever, but they were hoping to find some roaming horde for some reason in Indiana. Chuck 00:02:11 And I thought it was cool at the time because I would do anything to try and get my dad to pay attention to me. So I would tag along and I would metal detect right alongside of them. And I thought it was pretty cool. And I found myself when I heard about magnet fishing just recently, I learned that this was a thing saying, oh, wow, that looks like something I might want to try. And then I went, oh my God, I've become my father. Yeah. Josh 00:02:36 Were you like, maybe I'll strike it rich? Chuck 00:02:38 No, but I just think it's kind of cool and fun. Well, I the, like, idea of it. Josh 00:02:44 I think you can get into it. And it will be easy to get into because the barriers for getting into magnet fishing are purposefully kept low so that everybody can get into it, because it's supposed to be a really fun pastime and we should tell everybody what magnet fishing is if there's ever been a term that we needed to define it's. Magnet fishing. Chuck 00:03:06 Are you fishing for magnets? Josh 00:03:08 Yes. Chuck 00:03:08 Are you using magnets to try and get a fish out of a Lake? Josh 00:03:12 Yeah. There's so much Mercury in fish now that you can use magnets to catch them. Chuck 00:03:17 No, that's not what magnet fishing is. Magnet fishing is having a rope tied to a dope very strong magnet, which will talk about what these magnets are and how they work and stuff, and that in dropping it in a canal or a river or a Lake or off of a bridge into any of these bodies of water, dragging it along and hoping that you pull up something cool or valuable or both. Josh 00:03:44 Where does the dope come in? Chuck 00:03:46 I don't know. I guess you should. Well, never mind. Josh 00:03:52 I can use my imagination. So from looking at on YouTube, what I've seen more often than not, what comes out of the Lake or the river or the canal is not anything most people would want to touch. So I think, like being a magnet fisherman, you have to be fascinated by icky things, rusty things that were once not rusty or icky. And that the fact that they're underwater now makes them, by nature, interesting to magnet fissures. Chuck 00:04:24 Yeah. And this, by the way, comes from our old email@example.com and they aptly point out that this is pretty it's caught on here in America pretty well, especially during the pandemic. They did interview someone in our own state of Georgia who opened a magnet place to kind of furnish supplies for people. And he was like, man, it's like during the pandemic and during lockdown, things really blew up because you can socially distance. It got people out of the house. It really passes the time something you can take your kid and do. So it's really been booming in the States in the past couple of years, but it's long been popular in Europe and for good reason, because Europe is older and there are more interesting finds and you're way more likely to find some old, unexploded munition that you might want on your shelf, even though it's very dangerous. Josh 00:05:16 Sure. Chuck 00:05:16 Than you might in America. Josh 00:05:18 Yeah. We should buzz market that due to cause he seems okay. But brute magnetics in North Georgia. Chuck 00:05:25 Yeah. Josh 00:05:25 Clay Copeland. So what they've put together and he's actually the reason that I said that this hobby is being kept accessible purposefully because he said that the most powerful magnet that they sell, the top of the line system, can pull over £2000 of metal out of whatever waterway you're fishing in. It's still only like $200. Chuck 00:05:54 Yeah. Not bad for a hobby? No. Josh 00:05:56 And if you stop and think about it, there's a 2000 pound piece of metal that's getting close to like a car, isn't it? Chuck 00:06:05 I don't know how much the car weigh. I don't know. Josh 00:06:09 Like £2000 is what I'm guessing probably the top out at £2000. So like a Hummer probably weighs £2000. Chuck 00:06:15 Okay. Josh 00:06:16 I think that might be wrong. But the point is this. There's a 2000 pound magnet or a magnet that can pull £2000 for $200. That's a good deal. Okay. Chuck 00:06:25 That is a good deal. Any kind of hobby when you're buried in trees a couple of $100 and you could spend hours and hours, like with your kids or something. Not bad at all. You should be sure of a few things. One, that you're really good at tying knots, because what you don't want to do is lose that magnet. Josh 00:06:44 Sure. Chuck 00:06:45 And then have to get a magnet to fish out that magnet. So be really good at tying knots. You want a rope that's 50 to 100ft, depending on if you're obviously dropping off of bridges, you're going to want a longer rope. And I saw that nylon paracord is a really good option because it's like a thicker one, because it's got that perfect mix of toughness and elasticity. Josh 00:07:07 And the magnets that you would buy, too, are not your normal refrigerator magnets, which are made of ferrite. The ones that Mr. Copeland sells are made of neodymium, is how I'm going to say it. Chuck 00:07:20 I think that's right. Josh 00:07:21 And neodymium is a rare Earth metal, and they mix it with a boron and iron. And it's just, again, super strong. Like you're not going to pull anything approaching £2000 with a refrigerator magnet, even if it's super big. And that's the point. You want a fairly compact magnet that is also designed in a streamlined manner. So it's not going to get hooked up on all sorts of muck and kelp and seaweed and all that stuff, too. Chuck 00:07:49 Should we take a break? Josh 00:07:51 I think so. We're really just getting started with magnet fishing, everybody. Chuck 00:07:55 All right. We'll be right back. Sponsorship Ads 3 00:08:08 Hi, I'm Katie Lowes. You might also know me as Quinn Perkins from Scandal or Rachel from Inventing Anna. I'm also a mother, my son Albie and my daughter Vera. I wanted to create a space for open and honest conversations about all things Paris, and I thought a podcast was the best way to do just that. Check out season five of my podcast, Katie's Crib. It is super raw, vulnerable and hilarious. Katie's Crib In no way shape form is judgmental or telling you exactly how to parent or exactly how you should be. I think it really just makes you feel less alone and gives you a community. We're going deep with guests like Inventing, Anna Club T, how to get away with murders, Asian Aomi King, and yes, sometimes my son Aldi when he bursts into my studio. So that's cool. Listen to Katie's cram every Thursday on the iHeartRadio App Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Sponsorship Ads 4 00:09:08 Hi, I'm Elliot Kalen, comedian, author, history buff and host of the Who Was Podcast, a history quiz show based on the best selling book series where kid contestants go toe to toe for a chance to win fantastic prizes. My co host, B. That's me. And I ask the tough questions. Like with Mozart, like Tik Tok. But that's not all we talk about on the show. Usually my signature look is bedhead. All right, I like it. I do gymnastics, and I have two stars. Are the stars from gymnastics or were you like wrestling, dinosaurs and things like that? I really like history. Even my mom says I know more than most adults do. We've got fun games. Silly songs, and don't forget to mention our amazing guests. It's me, Frida Carlos. Hello, everyone. It's me, Aretha Franklin. Listen to the Who Was Podcast on the iHeartRadio App Apple Podcast, or wherever you get a podcast. Sponsorship Ads 5 00:10:22 There's just so much people don't tell you about having a baby. And that's why my new podcast, The Healthy Baby Show, is here. I'm chasing Daeshram, and I want to share what I wish I'd known the first time around. I've been through so much with my own kids. Since then, I've learned so much from experts, friends and from building leading baby brands on how we can help nurture and protect and enrich our kids development. Each episode dives into what the latest science and research says on everything from birth plans to fertility treatments to postpartum. And I want to share all that knowledge with the world. You'll hear from experts like Dr. Eliza Pressman and Doctor Philip Landrigan and personal stories from mothers like Mini Driver and Sarah Haines. Everybody is subject to the vagaries of circumstance, and all we can do is build our strength at becoming these fluid, flexible, kind of judo type peoplePARENTS with what life throws at us. So listen in to the Healthy Baby Show starting on March 30 on the iHeartRadio App Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Chuck 00:11:44 By the way, during our break, I just looked it up. The average weight of a car is about £4200. Okay, so I think one of the smart cars, maybe about £2000. Josh 00:11:54 Sure, I'll take smart car. It's basically the same thing as a homer. Chuck 00:11:58 And before I forget, the other thing I meant to mention on what you might need to get started is a tetanus shot. It's kind of funny to say, but that is no joke because you are pulling old, rusty things out of the water, inevitably. And that's the nature of magnets and metal and being underwater. So you do want to Tet in a shot and to have, like, some gloves and stuff like that. Josh 00:12:21 You also want to have some common decency because one of the reasons that some magnet Fisher people have a bad reputation in some places, like the UK and Germany are apparently two places where they kind of frown upon magnet fishing because people magnet fish, pull out some metallic junk that they don't want and just, like, leave it on the side of the river or the sidewalk, like the walking path alongside a canal or something like that. I get the impression that if you haul something out, it's up to you to either keep it or throw it away, not just leave it there. Chuck 00:12:59 Yes. Or turn in. In the case of unexploded munitions, if you find an old World War II hand grenade or bullets, it seems like I looked up a lot of these fines and stuff, and it is disturbing how many weapons are in bags and Rivers. It really makes you wonder why it's in there. But lots of guns are found. Tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of bullets are found. I saw one where this little six year old girl and her parents pulled 600 bullets out of a Lake. And like I said, like AK 47. Someone found a Tommy gun. Josh 00:13:42 Wow. Chuck 00:13:42 That's a pretty good find. That's a war revolver. Pretty good find, sure. But people are dumping dangerous things like Civil War era swords. Pretty good find, sure. But there are dangerous things down there. And if anything is unexploded, I think the assumption is it's always dangerous. So you should probably get in touch with somebody about it. Josh 00:14:07 Yeah. And that's especially true in Europe, where a lot of World War Two artillery and ammunition is still laying around. I saw a blog post, Chuck, that I guess I hadn't heard about the Tommy gun because it was called the greatest magnet fishing finds of all time. Chuck 00:14:25 Oh, really? Josh 00:14:26 And one of them was like a bench. Like a park bench. And the caption was, who couldn't use a free bench? They were really trying to sell it. So I guess the Tommy gun hadn't been found yet. Chuck 00:14:38 I saw one guy who there was a picture of him holding up a machine gun standing beside. No lie. It was either eight or ten of those stupid rental scooters. Electric scooters. People just throw those in bodies of water. Josh 00:14:55 Yeah. And shopping carts, too. You know, who does that? That affected teenagers. Chuck 00:15:01 I saw one guy found a human body that had handcuffs on. Josh 00:15:04 No. Chuck 00:15:05 Yes. Josh 00:15:06 No. Chuck 00:15:06 Yes. Josh 00:15:08 Boy, he's the wrong search terms for magnet fishing fines, because I didn't see anything like that. Chuck 00:15:13 I just searched for most interesting finds. Josh 00:15:16 A body with handcuffs. Are you for real? Yeah. Chuck 00:15:18 I mean, that's what this one goofy website said. Josh 00:15:21 Goodness to be gracious. Wow. That was pretty much my worst fear when I was a youngster vacationing in Lake Erie. Yes, man. Just bumping into a body that I just knew was out there. 5ft away from me, headed right toward me. The idea of finding one magnet. Oh, my God. I'm going to have to go, like, chill out for a little bit before we record our next short stuff. Chuck 00:15:46 Well, could you imagine they're pulling this thing out and it's coming up handcuffed first. So either around the ankles or around the wrist. Josh 00:15:54 Yeah. Chuck 00:15:55 So I mean, that's a pretty cruising discovery. Josh 00:15:57 Yeah. Good Lord. Well, thanks for ending it like that. Sure. Chuck 00:16:02 Well, we're not quite done. I just wanted to say how discouraging it is that people are pulling out so much trash. It's great. The people that are doing this to pull out the trash and dispose of it. Well, yeah. But as I was researching this yesterday, Emily texted me that our house is next to sort of this bamboo forest with a Creek and she saw a truck pull over and throw a gigantic microwave into the Creek and speed off. And now I have to go fish that microwave out. She got his license plate. But I'm like, what are you going to do will be all over that to be like the cops in the Big Lebowski. Oh, yeah. We got a whole team of guys working on it. But now I got to go fish this microwave out. There's no way I can let it sit there. Josh 00:16:47 You're going to get yourself a $200 magnet for Mr. Clay Copeland of Brute Magnetic. Chuck 00:16:52 I probably should, because that would be the easiest way to do it and it would be legal in Georgia. Legality wise. We should mention that it's everywhere so far except for South Carolina. It is legal because in South Carolina it falls under the South Carolina Underwater Antiques Act, which prohibits you from collecting things with equipment deployed from the surface of the water. And that even means magnets. Josh 00:17:17 Yeah, especially magnets is what I heard. Chuck 00:17:20 Yeah. In Europe is a little more controlled, not controlling, but they have more restrictions and things in place, right. Josh 00:17:26 Yeah. Again, there's a lot of unexploded ordinance that's just the right age to blow up in your face accidentally when you're inspecting it to figure out what it is. Chuck 00:17:34 That's right. Josh 00:17:35 So it makes sense. So that's magnet fishing. Go forth. Check out Brute Magnetics, get yourself a magnet and throw away the stuff you don't want. Don't throw it back or just leave it on the side of the road. Okay. Chuck 00:17:47 Agreed. Josh 00:17:48 That's it for short stuff, Chuck. Agreed. That's official. See you later. Ending 00:17:56 Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio App Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
JT 00:00:02 Welcome to Movie Life Crisis. Join us as we watch the best movies from 30 years ago. Movie Trailer 00:00:08 Bill and Stan are in deep trouble, and only one man can save them. Movie Trailer 00:00:13 My Cousin Vinny. Jeff 00:00:14 How long you've practice? Movie Trailer 00:00:16 Almost six weeks, but with Vinny's style two utes. Movie Trailer 00:00:19 What is a ute? And Lisa's mouth. Movie Trailer 00:00:21 You think I'm hostile now? Wait till you see me tonight. Movie Trailer 00:00:24 They're dead meat. Joe Pesci is My Cousin Vinny. You two know each other? Jeff 00:00:28 She's my fiancee. Movie Trailer 00:00:30 Probably now. Still with it. Available now on home video. Rated art. JT 00:00:37 Available now on home video. My Cousin Vinny Movie Life Crisis season two, episode two, My Cousin Vinny. Jeff 00:00:44 Season Two that still weirds me out that we've been doing it already for two seasons. JT 00:00:48 I know. I can't wait for the season one residuals to start showing up in my mailbox because I really could use some new equipment. Jeff 00:00:53 Not going to happen. JT 00:00:54 Not going to happen. We got all the chimney dogs we can. But yes. Season two, episode two, My Cousin Vinny very excited to talk about this movie. Very excited for our guests. But before then, we have a review that we would like to get right into. It's our first bad review. Yes. And because we want to get better, we're going to just read it and talk about it and see what maybe we should be doing differently or what we should do better. So your title is Fake Movie Fans when it comes to creating a movie podcast, the team involved should have an extensive knowledge of film. This team fails at that, not knowing the replacement actress for Jennifer Parker providing incorrect information and names on movies. The dynamic is good, yeah, all right. But their informational context is bad. Being a longtime movie lover, this podcast misses the Mark as it doesn't showcase the true movie fan. To be a lover of film, they should appreciate the films and not criticize them, I. E. Complaining that the film is too long or too loud. Jeff, Fake Movie Fan Discuss I like movies. Jeff 00:01:50 I really enjoy it. I like hearing that that person doesn't like that we don't like it enough, but it seems like we gave every movie at least a six and a half out of ten. That seems all right. It doesn't mean we hate any movies, right? JT 00:02:04 I grew up like watching people watch the Saints and watch LSU. And never in my life did it occur to me that if you're a fan, you're supposed to love everything. All I ever heard was my uncle swearing at the TV. I thought that was what fandom was. Jeff 00:02:15 Blind allegiance to the team is not what I thought either. I really like watching movies. I wanted to learn more about how they're made and how to break them down. But I'm just talking about the stuff that I like that makes me giggle. That's I thought what we were doing here. JT 00:02:31 Totally. I like that it said this team fails, it's just us. There's no team. Jeff 00:02:37 We are the team. JT 00:02:38 It's just two chubby middle aged guys. Even the intern never shows up for work if we get something wrong. Here's the thing. I know exactly what he's talking about. We were talking about Terminator Two. We got into a time travel discussion, and I was countering a point that you made by bringing up how and Back to the Future. The actress that played Jennifer Parker changed from movie one to movie two. But I forgot that actress's name and I could have stopped and looked it up. I have the Internet in front of me. That's how this is happening. Jeff 00:03:00 It's not worth it. No, no. JT 00:03:01 But here's the thing, though. I opted not to look it up because I like the flow to happen. Like we're just two idiots talking about movies. If we're talking about Terminator Two, I have the Terminator Two actors down, but I forgot Claudia Wells, who played Jennifer Parker in Back to the Future. Jeff 00:03:13 Claudia Wells. That is her name. JT 00:03:15 A message on Instagram to a teller that I'd forgotten her name during a Terminator Two podcast. She could forgive me. She hasn't answered yet, but if she does, I will. I'll put that on the podcast. Jeff 00:03:24 Is she still alive? JT 00:03:25 Oh, yeah. She has a clothing boutique in La. She seems to be doing very well. Nice shout out, Claudia Wells, you were phenomenal. Nothing personal. We are just talking about Terminator Two. But yeah. Thank you for this constructive criticism. We will take it to heart. And when we can afford to hire people to make sure we don't get anything wrong, we'll do that. But in the meantime, we're just two idiots and we're going to get stuff wrong. And liking movies means that sometimes we don't like everything anyway. Jeff 00:03:48 Absolutely. All right. JT 00:03:50 We do have a guest for today's episode who we will bring in a little bit later. But she actually is a movie expert and an entertainment professional. So if she messes anything up, she should be absolutely crucified. And I'm just kidding. Don't do that. Jeff 00:04:00 They should send a bad message in for her then. JT 00:04:03 Yes, we'll link her social media. So if you can do that, if you want to name that tune your One for One on the Years. Jeff 00:04:10 Oh, my God. I keep forgetting about this. And I keep telling myself I get scared because 92 is bad. JT 00:04:16 Good. The top 100 is like 93 songs that you would get immediately. But I think this is one you might have a little trouble with. Jeff 00:04:22 So here you go. You can stop. Is this how do I talk to Angels by the Heights? Dude, I don't know. It just sticks in there. JT 00:04:43 I would have never gotten that. Jeff 00:04:45 Is that the right artist? The Heights? JT 00:04:47 Yes. Okay, the Heights. Name another song from the Heights. I'll give you $1,000. Jeff 00:04:52 Dude, I don't know what the Heights even look like. JT 00:04:55 And the reason you don't know that is because that's a band that was made up for a TV show called The Heights. And that song was the theme song for the TV show, and it got canceled after a half a season. There aren't any other Heights songs. Jeff 00:05:06 I didn't know that. And also, I don't know why I knew who that was. JT 00:05:09 I don't either. That's ridiculous. Jeff 00:05:10 Two for two, though. Now I'm getting my confidence back. JT 00:05:12 Now I felt like a soft rock like ballad from a group no one ever heard of. I thought that would be a good curveball, but you just fucking smashed it. You teed off on that curveball like 2001 Berry Bonds. All right, my cousin Vinny, give us a synopsis. Jeff 00:05:25 Quick synopsis. Two New Yorkers accused of murder in a rural part of Alabama, when they're driving back to go to College has to call on one of their cousins who is a lawyer and he doesn't have any trial experience. And he tries to win the case. JT 00:05:41 Daniel son and his friend get busted for murder, but not really. And then they call in my cousin Vinny and his girlfriend, Marisa Tome to help out in Alabama. Jeff 00:05:48 He is in Alabama and he kills a good old boy. There's no way this is not going to trial. JT 00:05:54 They're all crooked. You know how it is down here. They sleep with their sister. Jeff 00:05:58 What some of them do. JT 00:05:59 $11 million budget, $64 million gross. I was actually surprised that this movie only did $64 million. Jeff 00:06:05 It's probably more popular now than it was when it was out in the movie theater. JT 00:06:08 Yes, I was surprised last week when Sister Act had done $230,000,000 in the open. But I mean, 11 million and you get 64 back. That's pretty good. But I was like 64 million people should have been going to see this movie. Marissa told me won an Oscar for best supporting Actress. And I'll tell you, once I got done watching this movie, I was really mad that there were not more Oscar victories for this movie. Jeff 00:06:27 Yeah, it was really well put together. I enjoyed it. JT 00:06:29 Did you have any other awards? Jeff 00:06:30 I had the American Comedy Awards. Joe Pesci got the Funniest Actor and the Circuit Community Awards, best Actress for Supporting role, Marisa Tomei, and she won best breakthrough Performance at the MTV Movie Awards. JT 00:06:42 All right. That other one you said is that from the Hoboken Auto Trader back of the Best Movie Award. Jeff 00:06:48 It's pretty small, but she won something. I thought you won an awards. That's all I did. JT 00:06:53 We were going that deep. Say Vincent's Junior High voted it best performance of the year sequel spin offs. Jeff 00:06:59 They almost made a sequel at one point. Joe Pesci wants to do it, but Marisa Tomei didn't. And now they both want to do it and the production company doesn't want to do it. JT 00:07:06 Yes, I read that the writer Dale Lanner said in 2012 that he had written a sequel where Vinny was practicing law in England, and I think Marisa Tomei didn't want to do that one, but Joe Pesci was up for it. Jeff 00:07:16 Well, that's because he's from England, too. The writer. JT 00:07:18 Yes, I was. Thought you were going to say Joe Pesci. He's way better than I thought as an actor. Jeff 00:07:22 No. By the way, there's another thing that we should mention as a sequel. In the spin off, there is a Vincent LaGuardia Gambini sings Just for you, and it's an album. You can get it on Spotify and YouTube music and all the places you get Apple music and stuff like that. The first song is called Yovenny, and it's just him singing as Vincent Gambini. It's really bad and really good all at the same time. JT 00:07:46 Good. I love it there. So what we should do is make an album tie in with Joe Pesci. Yes. Jeff 00:07:51 He's on the cover wearing that, like, 18th century ridiculous outfit that he wore for the judge. That's what's on the cover. JT 00:07:57 The velour suit that makes him look like he has a magic show with monkeys. Jeff 00:08:00 Yes, it definitely is. That's the one. Do you remember when you first saw it? JT 00:08:04 It may not have been the first time I saw it, but I think I remember watching at Matt Ivanenski's house in junior high. So a couple of years after it came out because he and I were Matt Ivan. Yeah. I used to stay over there all the time, like, so much so that I remember his phone number. Still 56722. Jeff 00:08:19 You should probably beep that out. JT 00:08:21 Yeah, I will, but it's in the phone book. Jeff 00:08:23 It's not in the phone book. JT 00:08:25 She should be living on Neptune. But, you know, like your childhood friends, like, you remember their parents landline phone number. Jeff 00:08:30 Right. Of course. JT 00:08:31 Deep into your brain, like your own Social Security. Yeah, but yeah, I remember he and I watched the movie one time. We were staying at his house, and I don't know if it was the first time I saw it, but I remember he and I fell over laughing for, like three or four years afterwards. Just would say all the time. Identical. Jeff 00:08:44 When that guy said that, we said that all the time. That one in Highness crimes. Those are the two that I just love the way he does that. Yeah. Dude, I don't remember where I saw it. I remember quoting it towards the end of high school was like, big and stuff. So it had to be right after it came out. I don't know. It's fantastic. So I don't really remember it, but I'm glad I saw it. Yeah. JT 00:09:04 This is one I saw so many times. It's a miracle. I have one clear memory of seeing it, but I do have that one. And I saw it easy 30 times after that. And if Wendy didn't watch it with me when I rewatched it, she said, we just watched this, me and you last year. I was like, so watch it again. It's freaking amazing. Jeff 00:09:20 So I watched it, then took my notes, and then Cat was like, Wait, I want to watch it. So then we had to watch it again. So what did you give it? If it's so good. JT 00:09:27 I got a nine. I got nine out of ten Jimmy dogs. Jeff 00:09:30 If we can't do half, I'm doing nine also, but it's nine and a half for me. It's really close. JT 00:09:35 No, I think we said halves are available. Jeff 00:09:36 Okay, I'm going with ten chimney dogs with a bite taken out of it. Nine and a half chimney dogs. JT 00:09:41 Dude, I thought hard about nine and a half. I don't want to jam myself up that much. Jeff 00:09:44 But I almost gave it a ten. There's nothing there's nothing I didn't like about this movie. I really enjoyed it. JT 00:09:52 It's so good, really strong all the way through, and so freaking funny. Jeff 00:09:56 Very funny. JT 00:09:56 All right, cool. Before we get into the best of this movie, we're going to welcome our guest, Jenny Baton. Jenny was a writer and co executive producer on Disenchantment, the Matt Graining animated comedy, and she was the executive producer on the animated Netflix show Hoops. So unlike Jeff and I, she's an entertainment professional who actually makes a living in this industry, and we're super excited to have her join us. Jeny (guest) 00:10:18 Guys, I am so happy to be here. I love your podcast. I am going to come at you with a correction already. Please tell us, because earlier when you said you had a guest, you called me a movie expert. And that could not be further from the truth. I know nothing about movies. I don't want to know anything about movies. I like to keep it all in the dark because I don't want homework. That's probably smart TV. Jeff 00:10:41 It's good. Jeny (guest) 00:10:41 Call it's more my jam. So get ready for your second bad review from something I will surely say. Also, I have to say, you guys are so impressive with your memory. How do you remember where you were when you watched this 30 years ago? I would never be able to do that. JT 00:10:57 A lot of them I remember nothing from, but a lot of times thinking about where I saw the movie, I'll dredge up something that I would have otherwise never been able to access. I couldn't have told you in a casual conversation that I was at Mad. I have an inspiring house watching my Cousin Vinny. But when I started thinking about the earliest my Cousin Vinny memories I had, I just remember me and Matt being 13 and going identical and, like, laughing hysterically in his parents'house. Jeff 00:11:19 That's awesome. Jeny (guest) 00:11:20 Well, still impressed either way, but thank you for having me. I'm so busy. JT 00:11:24 Of course. Okay, best scenes. Jeff, what's your first one? Jeff 00:11:28 The part where Vinny is cross examining the prosecution's witnesses, and he has the guy who's cooking the grits the magic grits. He's like, cross examining. And he gets to the guy that lives in the trailer with the dirty screen, and he's, like, holding the pictures, and he's telling him the stuff. And he was like, all right, what do we call these big things right here? And the guy's like trees. He's like trees. That's right. Go ahead. Don't be afraid. Just shout it out. JT 00:11:54 Don't be afraid. You just shout it out when you know the answer. Jeff 00:11:57 That whole scene, how he sets up all of the. He just lets those people walk into a trap. And that's how he proves his point is fantastic. She says her glasses are fine, and then he proves her wrong. That whole scene. I don't know if that's a scene. If that's just a quote, I don't know. But all three of those people are the part I like the most is that one scene. JT 00:12:18 Jenny, all of that courtroom stuff. Jeny (guest) 00:12:20 Okay, here's what a scene is. JT 00:12:22 Perfect. Jeny (guest) 00:12:22 All right, so you read scripts, right? Jeff 00:12:25 Yeah. Jeny (guest) 00:12:26 So the very header of the scene that you're about to read, it's called The Slugline. It tells you interior, courtroom, whatever. That all of the dialogue, all of the action underneath that is the scene. Jeff 00:12:38 So that's perfect. Yes. Jeny (guest) 00:12:40 So unless there was, like, a major shift in the camera angle, because then it can become a different scene. Like, if the camera goes to a different angle and you're focusing on two different people, that's a separate scene. But, yeah, pretty much everything under that. JT 00:12:54 So is it generally like. I mean, not to be too prescriptive, but would it be like a location change or like a significant time lapse? We start on the courtroom until we leave the courtroom. We could call that one scene. Jeny (guest) 00:13:06 Yes. I mean, it depends. If there is a time lapse, there's a different scene, like you said. But, yeah, for the most part, if you're staying in the courtroom, that's going to be a scene. JT 00:13:15 All right. Jeff 00:13:16 Yeah. They're cuts, but I think it's all one scene. JT 00:13:19 Nice. Cool. We'll have you on next year to explain what acts are. We'll just build it up one at a time, and then, like, five years, we'll know everything there is. Jeny (guest) 00:13:27 Probably get that wrong. Perfect. Jeff 00:13:30 Jt, what's your first one? JT 00:13:32 My first one, obviously. Vinny and JT, the ass kicking negotiation counter offer. I pulled a quote from it, but I don't know if I'm going to play it, because even after I edited it down, it's like a minute 30. It was like three minutes and 45 seconds. And I was like, trimming and trimming and trimming. I was like, this might be too long to play, but obviously, JT, my name's sake. Jeff 00:13:50 You were named for him? JT 00:13:51 Vinny and JT in this movie, the Ass kicking negotiation. I just loved that. Jeff 00:13:55 When he breaks it down and his friends start laughing at him, he's like, I could use a good ass kicking. I got to be honest. But I think I'm going to go with option B. And they start laughing, man. That's great, dude. JT 00:14:07 And the whole time throughout the conversation, he's, like, negotiating with him, and he keeps stopping to look at the guy with the neck brace. He's like, what happened? You fall down? And like, he goes back to talking to JT. I could use a good ask it. Can I be perfectly honest with you? If you fall down at work, he's like, no, it's your place, okay. Jeff 00:14:23 And they carry those jokes all the way through, and he just keeps showing up with, like, the 20 wrapped around the ones. Like, they just keep coming back. JT 00:14:30 Look here, little Yankee boy. I got your money. Jeff 00:14:31 Fantastic. JT 00:14:33 Yeah, that's number one for me, Jane. Jeff 00:14:34 What's yours? Jeny (guest) 00:14:35 I didn't know we were supposed to have more than one. I only have one for each of these categories. JT 00:14:39 That's perfect. Jeny (guest) 00:14:39 But I got to go with they're talking about what he's going to wear for the deer hunting. I just love her so much. It was so beautifully written. It was so perfect. I cracked up, oh, man. And there was also one of my favorite quotes, and she was like, what did she say? Like, the deer is not going to give a with the guy who what kind of pants the son of a bitch is wearing. Who shot me? JT 00:15:06 Shot you. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, that was Oscar winning delivery. Jeff 00:15:12 Yeah. And I like how she goes into the bathroom at that point. He's like, what about these pants? And she just slams the door and he's like, yelling like that, man. So good. Jeny (guest) 00:15:22 I love it. That's how he calls her, too. JT 00:15:25 All right, Jeff, what's your next scene? Jeff 00:15:26 When he's talking to Mona Lisa Vito and she's on the witness stand and he says, does the defense case hold water? And she has that, like, Epiphany? Like, oh, no, I know it's now or whatever it is. A 62 Pontiac Tempest or whatever. That whole thing. I like that she has the Apostrophe. Yeah, she has the Apostrophe and realizes that it's not a 64 Buick Skylock. It is a 63 Pineapple Tempest. JT 00:15:53 Yes, I got that one as well. It's like the climax of the movie, and it's a freaking genius. And I loved it. Jeff 00:15:58 Yeah, it's really good. JT 00:15:59 I thought it was kind of ballsy for him with his cousin's life and the balance to not just tell his fiance beforehand, like, hey, check this out. These tire tracks are the wrong thing. Go up there, and then I'm going to ask you about it. He just throws it at her on the stand. Like, what if she misses that and then his cousin gets put to death? Jeff 00:16:14 You could say it after that. Dude, when he set it up, I thought this whole thing was really well put together. I don't know if this is how it is in real court. Jeny (guest) 00:16:23 I did too. Jeff 00:16:23 It's not like Law and Order. I hate to bash Law and Order again since we got trashed for that on Twitter, but it was really well put together. And if lawyers are like this, I could see why they get paid so much money. Jeny (guest) 00:16:33 Well, I can't speak for the case itself being well put together, but I will say, as a movie plot, this thing was so good. These things were laid in very early. They were thrown away. They were used later, she comes around, she's the hero. And I think that it speaks to their relationship that he didn't have a plan. He just knew her so well. Jeff 00:16:54 Right. Jeny (guest) 00:16:55 You know what I mean? And they played on their ten year history really well. Jeff 00:16:58 And the fact that my wife and I were talking about how he worked at her dad's car place, and that's why they know so much about cars in the first place. It lucked out. That's why they don't go to the electric chair, because they know about cars. And that's kind of cool. Unknown speaker 00:17:14 Yeah. JT 00:17:14 Going back to the lawyer part of this case, there's a bunch of stuff written about this movie from law professors and law review magazines going like, here's what you can learn about actual court cases for my Cousin Vinny. Lawyers love to write stuff, and it's pretty well chronicled how accurate the law is in this movie. Jeff 00:17:32 The American Bar Association, the General ranked at number three on the 25 greatest legal movies. Get out the whole idea of the cross examination thing that I was talking about where he lets him fall into the trap. Everybody says this is like an abridged but very succinct representation of the judicial system and the witness and having the expert and then you recall them. JT 00:17:55 And all that stuff is like, yeah, but there's a bunch of stuff with lawyers going like, here's all the stuff that is dead on ball is accurate about my Cousin Vinny. Jeff 00:18:03 That's an industry term. Jeny (guest) 00:18:04 Should we be concerned at all that this man had no idea what he was doing and it was very accurate in a court of law? Jeff 00:18:11 The writer, I think, is he a lawyer or something, or he studied law. I don't know. JT 00:18:16 The director went to law school. I don't know about the writer. He might have just been a smart guy. Jeff 00:18:21 So, yeah, I had JT also as my other third one. So what's your other one? JT 00:18:25 My other one was when Vinny cross examines the first witness, the two utes, and then does water soak into a grid faster on your stove? Did the laws of physics cease to exist on your stove? Jeff 00:18:35 The fact that they set the grits joke up or that whole idea when he went to breakfast earlier that morning, when they open up the menu and it's only breakfast, lunch and dinner, he's like, what do you think? Breakfast? And then he gets the guy behind the counter to tell him what a grid is and how it works. Jeny (guest) 00:18:50 How long does it take to make this great? JT 00:18:53 Everything in there that you need quotes. We got our top three. I think. Jeff, you captured slightly more than three. What did you end up at? Jeff 00:19:01 Well, I had 64 when I first wrote it down, because I literally just wrote down every single thing that I always think about. But I know we can't talk about that many. I got it down to three. JT 00:19:12 All right, what's number one for you? Jeff 00:19:13 Number one for me is her biological clock is ticking, and she tells them about it, and then he just tells her all the problems he's having and why she shouldn't bring it up. JT 00:19:25 Yeah, we'll play that one. I'll play that one. Jeff 00:19:27 Oh, you have that. Okay, good. Movie Trailer 00:19:29 Well, I hate to bring it up, because I know you got enough pressure on you already, but we agreed to get married as soon as you won your first case. Meanwhile, ten years later, my niece, the daughter of my sister, is getting married. My biological clock is taken like this. And the way this case is going, I ain't never getting married. Jeff 00:19:48 Lisa, I don't need this. I swear to God. Movie Trailer 00:19:51 I do not need this right now, okay? I got a judge that's just aching to throw me in jail, an idiot who wants to fight me for $200. Movie Trailer 00:20:00 Slaughtered pigs, giant loud whistles. I ain't slept in five days. Movie Trailer 00:20:06 I have no money. Movie Trailer 00:20:08 A dress code problem. Movie Trailer 00:20:09 And a little murder case, which, in the balance holds the lives of two innocent kids. Not to mention your facial expressions right here. Movie Trailer 00:20:18 Biological clock, my career, your life, our marriage. And let me see, what else could we pile on? Is there any more shit we could pile on to the top of the outcome of this case? Movie Trailer 00:20:30 Is it possible maybe it was a bad time to bring it up? Jeff 00:20:33 Dude, he kills it right there. And he's wearing, like, the. No, they totally did. Look, she's wearing, like, that tight floral jumpsuit. I don't even know what you call that. It's not jumpsuits, like, in it on. It on. She's got the boots, and he's wearing, like, the high top, like Ewings. They say, like, Ewing 33 on them. They're untied with Z kalvaricis and Cosby sweater, and they are just killing. JT 00:21:04 He's got, like, a big freaking gold medallion. And his facial expressions. Movie Trailer 00:21:08 What else? JT 00:21:09 Is there anything else? He's, like, thinking he's, like, tapping himself on the face, like, looking off to the side. Jeff 00:21:13 He reminds me so much of Mr. Pinoble. I can't even explain any words. So funny. JT 00:21:19 Yeah. I mean, dude, you could pick pretty much any interaction Vinny and Mona Lisa have in this movie and put it in the list of the best quotes, because the back and forth between the two of them was just brilliant. Jeff 00:21:29 Yes. Jeny (guest) 00:21:30 Yeah. There was so well matched, performance wise, it was perfect. JT 00:21:33 Like her in that one, too, is great. Meanwhile, my niece, the daughter of my sister. Yes, that's so freaking Italian Catholic. Brooklyn is perfect. Jeff 00:21:43 And she's from Brooklyn and doesn't talk anything like that. No, but she knew the voice because she's from there. JT 00:21:48 The first quote I got is the two utes. The two what? Jeff 00:21:51 And then when he enunciates it better and says Utes, and then he goes, the two defendants, and then he turns and gives the same guy to judge, man. Do you write that? Is that something that you just let Joe Pesci do his thing? Like, how does that happen? JT 00:22:06 That's a great question, Jenny. Is that an action note or is that just a performance? Jeny (guest) 00:22:10 You can't always tell with the good actors. Sometimes they're just giving you so much wonderful material to work with that you find it in the editing room or you remember it on set and you're like, yeah, that has to be in. And then what you do is you go back and change the script. That's what happened. Jeff 00:22:24 Nice. Yeah. Mrs. Reilly, apparently that whole bit that only Mrs. Riley was Joe Pesci just winging it. And they're like, that's awesome. Let's keep that in there. JT 00:22:36 Yeah. Jeny (guest) 00:22:37 Now it's in the script forever. Jeff 00:22:38 That's fantastic. JT 00:22:39 But, dude, when he says that. Jeff 00:22:44 Really enunciates, I like it. Unknown speaker 00:22:46 Yeah. JT 00:22:46 What's your next one? Jeff 00:22:48 My next one is. Well, I have the imagine you have Radia. You prancing along like that whole thing that Jeanne was talking about, it's just you've met my wife. She's from New Orleans East. She's super. Yeti when she gets going, it sounds just like this. When we were watching the movie, she was like, saying it along with Marisa Tomaine. It sounds just like all of the things that I've heard her say sound just like this. And that one just sticks with me. I can't not pick the deer. JT 00:23:17 I've tried to tell people about how similar the New Orleans accent and the Brooklyn accent is. And everyone was like, Why? And I'm like, I don't know. It is. It absolutely is. I tried to pick some quotes that were shorter because most of them were so long and they're genius. But I didn't want to read out four paragraphs. So my next one is identical. Jeff 00:23:34 Nice. JT 00:23:34 That one got a lot of run for a lot of years for me. Jeff 00:23:37 Wrote down identical and hyenas. And you can probably guess how I spelled hyenas. I put both of those down at the bottom because I wanted to mention them, but that wasn't my next quote. JT 00:23:48 What's your next quote again? Jeff 00:23:50 I don't know if you call this a quote or this is a scene, but when they're talking about first of all, Danielson is telling him that they love to argue, and then they cut right to the scene where he's like, why am I hearing the faucet drip? Who were you the last one to do it? And then they just start riffing from there about the Craftsman Model 1019 Laboratory Edition Signature Series talk wrench, that whole thing. JT 00:24:15 And he sets it up just like a lawyer. He's like, you were in the bathroom just a minute ago. Did you use the faucet? Yeah, I use the faucet. Jeff 00:24:23 Why am I listening to a trip? Yeah, that whole thing dead on. Ball is accurate. Yeah. And by the way, she said 16 foot pounds of torque. Apparently, if you use 16 foot pounds of torque, you would rip the faucet off by the stem. You need to use 16 inch pounds of torque. JT 00:24:40 Yeah, that makes sense. Jeff 00:24:41 Again, I don't know if that's just a quote or if that's a scene. It's like seven lines. I can't not put that down. It's fantastic. Jeny (guest) 00:24:49 It's probably a scene. JT 00:24:50 It's probably a scene, but it's phenomenal great. And we're not going to hold ourselves to these definitions. And my quote was the same as one of my scenes. It's Vinny and JTV ass kicking, which I tried to edit down, but I just couldn't do it. There's just too much. But, dude, oh, a counter offer. So option A, you kick my ass, and I could use a good ass kick. And I'd be perfectly honest with you. Or option B, kick your ass and collect $200. I think I would go with the $200. Jeff 00:25:14 He's like taking off his jacket and handed it to him. All right, get the money. Then we'll fight. And he grabbed his jacket back. JT 00:25:20 Jenny, do you have a quote to add? Do you have anything to add to that? Jeny (guest) 00:25:22 Well, it would definitely be the quote from earlier, but there was also something that she said that I like her entrance to the film. She gets out of the car, she looks amazing. She looks like three Kardashians in one, right? Her makeup is so on point. Her outfit sticks out like a sore thumb, like he says. And he blames her for sticking out like a sore thumb. And he says that he's like, at least I'm wearing the boots. And she just goes, oh, yeah, you blend. And I just loved that so much from her. And right in the very beginning, just the spice coming off of her. Jeff 00:25:55 And the best part is she holds her hand up. Oh, yeah, you blend like she's holding it next to her. JT 00:26:01 There was no interaction between those two that I didn't think was hilarious. It was all slow. Yeah. Jeny (guest) 00:26:08 I do have to bring some attention to the elephant in the room. And I'm sure this was possibly a problem at the time the movie came out. But she is a smoke show and she is so much younger than him, and he is a tiny old man. I will say performance wise, they were very well matched. But you do have to wonder if she got the role and then found out that her love interest was Joe Pesci. And she went, oh, absolutely. Jeff 00:26:36 He was 49 and she was 27. Yeah. Jeny (guest) 00:26:39 And there was a bit of a struggle to believe them together a tiny bit, but I will say that she sold it. Jeff 00:26:45 So my wife has seen it a thousand times. I've seen it a thousand times. At one point I go, hey, is Joe actually wearing a wig? And then I looked it up and he's wearing a wig with facelift tape. And if you go back and watch the whole time, his eyes are like squinty because he wants to look younger, because he's dating Merci Tome. Jeny (guest) 00:27:05 All I could stare at so weird. And then at one point I think it's the whistle noise or some noise, and he gets up in the middle of the night and I'm like, is this man just wearing a T shirt with no pants? Is he just winning the pooing? It out there and this sexy woman is in bed with it. It was insane to me. There were a few moments like that where you really struggled. But then she does sell it. Like she stares at him and she's so in love with him and proud of him. And they talk about their ten year history. And I'm like, all right, if that ten years wasn't there, I don't get it. JT 00:27:39 It's hard to me to think of who could have done a better job than Joe Pesci. But that is the biggest struggle is like, how do you put her with him and expect anyone to believe that real life is happening? All right, cool. So is that all the quotes? Anybody have any other questions? Jeff 00:27:52 That's all the quotes I got. Unless you want to count the other 61 that I had written down. JT 00:27:58 If only look for the bonus content where it's 4 hours of us reading off my cousin codes and cackling. Jeff 00:28:02 It's just us watching the movie and talking with him. JT 00:28:05 Best three characters, obviously. Jt, my name's Sake. Chris Ellis is the actor. And I looked him up because I was like, that guy looks super familiar. He's done a ton of stuff. Days of Thunder, that thing you do, catch me if you can Armageddon, he's been in a million movies. Jeff 00:28:18 Yeah, I recognized him from that thing you do. As soon as I saw it again, I was like, wait a second, that guy's got a van. We're all signing. You're signing? I'm signing. JT 00:28:27 I'm going to start my letter writing campaign to Tom Hanks. I think maybe next year to try to get him to do that thing you do in 1996. I think like a couple of letters a year, like maybe one a month for three years. Get him to come on the podcast. Jeff 00:28:37 He's really into typewriters. So if you Typed in an actual typewriter and sent it to him, I bet he takes it. Yeah. JT 00:28:43 I have a friend in Nashville who is a typewriter. I'll just do typewritten letters. Just one a month for like three years. Get them come on the podcast and talk about that thing you do in 1996. I think that's totally achievable, man. Who's your first? Jeff 00:28:53 My first character is Lane Smith, who plays Jim Trotter III prosecutor. The guy who says identical and hyenas. He just kills it. His opening statement is another one that the Bar Association talks about how it's so well put together and how he uses physical space to walk over and he's like three witnesses and he's pointing at the witness stand and he sells it, man. I mean, I really liked him in this. JT 00:29:21 Yeah, he was phenomenal. My next character is the judge, Fred Gwyn. I really liked him in this. He was most famous for playing Herman monster in the monsters, wearing the big Frankenstein like face and the giant shoes. And he got Sidecast after that for a long time, but he started to kind of pick up. Towards the end of his career, he did a bunch of animated stuff. Jeff 00:29:38 This was his last movie. JT 00:29:39 By the way, and he was great. He had that big droopy facial expressions, but a lot of them just his reaction looks were cracking me up. Jeff 00:29:47 He said he went to Yale as a judge in real life. He went to Harvard. JT 00:29:52 He went to Harvard. Jeff 00:29:53 That's cool. JT 00:29:53 Who else? Jeff 00:29:54 My next one was Marisa Tome because her accent was freaking phenomenal and she's got it going on. She was really good. Just everything about her character was awesome. Jeny (guest) 00:30:04 Jenny, I almost felt like Brittany Murphy and Clueless is almost doing an impersonation. There was this movie I just kept thinking about, it was so similar, and there was something about even that's just the lipstick was so identical and the gestures and everything, but yeah, obviously tome and Pesci, and then I kind of have to give it up to Ralph Machio. I feel like he's the least intimidating leading man that's ever been. I know he wasn't a lead in this, but he certainly has been a lead. And I don't know how he pulls that off, but he just seems like such a sweet guy. I thought he did great with the part. JT 00:30:40 I think he was billed here as a co lead, and Roger Ebert in the review was like Ralph Machio was the co lead and they didn't have anything to do. Jeff 00:30:48 He just sat there with his mustache and tried to not go to jail. JT 00:30:52 Yeah, his mustache is on my worst for this movie. Jeff 00:30:55 I know how you love the mustache, dude. My last one is Austin Pendleton, who plays John Gibbons, the guy with the stutter public defender. Dude. When I saw it again for the first time in a long time when I watched it, and he is hitting the guy on the shoulder when he's trying to think of the word, and they show it back over his shoulder and you could see, like, Ralph Macchio and Vinny and they're all laughing at the table I was like, oh, man, this guy's killing it. I went and looked it up. I had to figure out, like, how is he so good at this? He actually has a stutter in real life. So he didn't want to take this, but he did it as a favor to the director. And apparently on set, they just had to keep doing takes of him doing it because it was so hilarious that the jury would start laughing. Like, when he shows us this prosecution and he's going and he's, like, spinning all over, they all lost it. He had to do it, like, three and four times. That's great if you can make that many people laugh. Jeny (guest) 00:31:54 Are you saying he wasn't faking it? Jeff 00:31:56 No, he was definitely faking it. Jeny (guest) 00:31:58 Okay. Jeff 00:31:58 But he grew up with a stutter, and that's why he didn't want to take it at first. Jeny (guest) 00:32:02 Because I was like, wait, that just puts a whole new light on it. And I'm uncomfortable. Jeff 00:32:06 He was definitely acting, but he had a stutter when he was younger, and that's why he didn't want to take it first. JT 00:32:11 But decided to I put him as an honorable mention for my best character because I think he had the highest batting average in this whole movie as far as, like, lines for laughs, because almost everything you said killed me. You were not wearing your necessary prescription glasses. They're reading glasses. He's a tough one. Jeff 00:32:29 And he's sweating the whole time. JT 00:32:31 Dude, he was absolutely killing me. My last character was Joe Pesci, who's just so angry. He's so funny, and I just love the angry, small Brooklyn Italian man energy. Yeah, he's good just because it reminds me of a lot of people that we grew up with, like, PJ Noble, who are just angry Italian men who are just like that, that yell all the time and wear gold chains. And I love it. Jeff 00:32:53 Fantastic. I got no other characters, though. Unknown speaker 00:32:56 Yeah. JT 00:32:56 So let's talk about Marissa Tomaker. She wins the Oscar for this role, best supporting actress in the 1993 Oscars, which are 419, 92 movies. And everyone for the last 30 years has been making fun of that. Like, it was like a fluke, but I pulled the list of the other nominees. It's Judy Davis for Husbands and Wives, Joan Plowright for Enchanted, April, Vanessa Redgrave for Howard's End and Miranda Richardson for Damage. I don't know any of those movies. Jeff 00:33:22 I don't remember any of those movies. Jeny (guest) 00:33:23 Wait, can we talk about bad characters? Jeff 00:33:26 Yeah. Jeny (guest) 00:33:27 What about the guy who eats the whole chicken leg in one bite? Jeff 00:33:32 Pulled it right out. Jeny (guest) 00:33:33 That was so repulsive. Jeff 00:33:35 And it's not a like a boot stuck in mud, hands down. Jeny (guest) 00:33:39 Least favorite moment, price. Jeff 00:33:40 How many takes did he do where he ate a whole chicken wing? I've watched people eat, like, chicken wings, like the tiny little drums like that. But that was a full size. Jeny (guest) 00:33:50 That was a drum. Jeff 00:33:51 Chicken leg. JT 00:33:52 Yeah, dude, I have in the notes for the best. It's like Alabama just being Alabama. Like, it's still just exactly like this. It's not aged at all. Jeff 00:34:00 Speaking of which, the sack of suds is still open. JT 00:34:03 Yeah, in Georgia, it's in Georgia. Jeff 00:34:05 But it's still open. That place where they filmed it is still there. And they sell two utes tuna in a can. It's like their brand of tuna, because when you think tuna, you think Georgia, you do chicken. JT 00:34:16 Empathy. Writer Dale Loner also wrote Dirty Rotten Scoundrels Love Potion Number Nine. He doesn't have a ton of credits, but Dirty Rotten Scoundrels Love Potion Number Nine, my cousin Vinny. That's pretty solid. I'm wondering why there aren't more credits because this movie is so freaking good. The pacing is great, the plotting is great, the characterization is great. The quotes are slim. I mean, did this guy just have, like a burst of brilliance? Was there a lot of uncredited punch up work? Like what happens to a guy who writes a couple of great movies and then disappears? Jeny (guest) 00:34:45 I'm going to go ahead and say he's just tired. Jeff 00:34:46 Yeah, he's tired. Jeny (guest) 00:34:49 His studio notes, he's tired of it. I have no idea. I'm sure there was a lot of uncredited punch at work or uncredited heavy lifting, but yeah, I don't know. I wonder this myself because I would love that career. Just be like, hey, three, and I'm out. I'm done. I'm hanging it up. JT 00:35:10 You have any more best, Jeff? Jeff 00:35:12 I don't have any best. JT 00:35:14 Jenny, you have any more best? Jeny (guest) 00:35:15 I don't. Did I skip ahead to the worst? Are we going through worst now? JT 00:35:19 Totally. It doesn't matter. Jenny, will you tell us as a stylish woman about Mona Lisa Vito's clothing in this movie? Jeny (guest) 00:35:25 I will. I don't know, actually. I think everything she had on is making a weird comeback, which I don't understand. Yeah, right. I don't fully understand, but I think that she was definitely over the top, but it looked so good on her. And again, I will point out her makeup was so on point in this movie. She looked like what the Kardashians are having plastic surgery, too. JT 00:35:55 She had the one, like, white streak of hair, like Rogue from The X Men. Jeny (guest) 00:36:00 I'm telling you, she could do way better than Joe Pesci in this movie, but she doesn't know that and she loves him and that's all that. JT 00:36:06 Yeah. Jeff 00:36:06 And her hair and makeup looked great even when she was supposed to be going to bed. So she was like cleaning her, I don't know, pantyhose in the sink. And that was like right when Joe Pesci was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm scared. And she's just wearing like a smoking hot night gown. But she looked great in that also. She was killing it. Jeny (guest) 00:36:28 Yeah. It was just in her T shirt and underwear. She looked amazing. And then when Joe did that. Jeff 00:36:34 I was going to say he didn't like it when it was a Yankees T shirt on a 49 year old man. Jeny (guest) 00:36:40 No. Why would they not cut that out? JT 00:36:45 Jenny, I have some questions for you. The first one is, where do you rank the name Mona Lisa, Vito and the great character name pantheon. I have some names for you I'm going to throw out. You can say better or worse once I get to the end. Jeny (guest) 00:36:58 Sure. JT 00:36:58 Like Coltrickle from Days of Thunder Knox over street. One of my favorites, Indiana Jones. Obviously. Trinity from The Matrix is the name I think is underrated Foxy Brown, Corella Deville. I feel like Mona Lisa Vito has got to be in that conversation. Jeny (guest) 00:37:12 Here's why I agree with you. Because if you're naming your character that she's got to live up to it in an authentic way and she just knocked it out of the park. She does. She deserves the name Mona Lisa. It was so good. Mona Lisa. Jeff 00:37:27 Yes. JT 00:37:27 She absolutely. She fully owned that. There was never a moment where you doubted that was Mona Lisa. There could be a person named Mona Lisa Bida who would do in all of those things. Jeff 00:37:35 And because she's Italian, Mona Lisa was her first name. And she also had a middle name, probably. And Vito was her last name. Jeny (guest) 00:37:42 Yes. JT 00:37:44 I feel like naming if I was going to try to write something, naming would be one of the hardest things for me. Are you good at naming stuff, Jenny? Is there a trick? Jeny (guest) 00:37:50 I do enjoy it. I don't think there's a trick. I enjoy it. I don't know why, but I tend to have a bad memory. But I will remember someone's great name and I will use it later. I'm writing a movie now, and I met someone named Gilly years ago, and of course, there was the SNL sketch. But this girl is such a Gilly that it's like, I don't know. There's something once you name the character and it really works, it just kind of feels good in your gut. JT 00:38:19 Right. Jeny (guest) 00:38:19 That doesn't sound too pretentious. JT 00:38:21 No, not at all. Jeny (guest) 00:38:22 But I also feel like as a TV writer, you have to keep up with the new name. JT 00:38:28 Right. Jeny (guest) 00:38:28 Like you can't be having Rachel's anymore or even just anyone. My generator like Lindsay, Sin, Lauren, Jennifer Madison. You got to have the Madison now. You got to have the Campbells. And the boys are all Colton. Jeff 00:38:46 It sounds like you're reading my Role for my high school kids. That's what it sounds like. Jeny (guest) 00:38:51 Yeah. I mean, you do you have to keep up with it. Because, again, if you write something and then it doesn't get produced for a few years later and you've got these old lame names, they got to be changed. Jeff 00:39:02 Never would have thought of that. JT 00:39:03 I do have a writing room question for you if you get assigned. So, like, all right, the whole writer's room, let's say, breaks out a season at the beginning and says, here's the kind of what's going to happen over the course of the season, and you chop it up into episodes, and then you assign an episode to individual writers and they go and write a draft. If you get assigned an episode and that episode, for whatever reason, like, needs a new character, a speaking role, do you create that character, name them, or does that, like a show runner has to sign off on it? Jeny (guest) 00:39:30 If you have to accomplish a certain thing in a scene and a character will help you do that, you throw the character in here's a character, and then you're getting something called character payments every time that character reappears in someone else's episode throughout the series in perpetuity for the person who originated that particular character. Yeah. So you have created that character, and now you will get it's a very small payment, but you still get it and makes you feel good. Jeff 00:39:57 Yeah, absolutely. Jeny (guest) 00:39:58 You're like, they're paying attention to me. Jeff 00:39:59 Awesome. That's really cool. JT 00:40:01 That has no bearing at all on this movie, but I just am super interested about that stuff, as you know, ask me anything. Jeny (guest) 00:40:06 Yeah. JT 00:40:07 I think the other question I had was how did you get your first writing gig? Would you tell quickly that story? Do you have to have a strong preference for the Oxford. Comma or do you have to know how to use a semicolon? Those are things I want to know. Jeny (guest) 00:40:17 You don't. I love an Oxford comma, and people take them out. And I'm like, no. And I put it right back in. It gets real passive aggressive. You don't have to even have correct grammar because the writer's assistant will be correcting everything that you do wrong. Anyway, what was your original question? JT 00:40:36 What was the pathway to the first writing gig? Jeny (guest) 00:40:38 Oh, it was actually I got to audition for SNL Saturday Night Live for those people who might not know. JT 00:40:44 Just joking. Jeny (guest) 00:40:44 Everyone knows that I auditioned for that. I met with Lauren. I had that weird meeting with Lauren, which was so bizarre. And then after that, it was like the first time because I had been trying for years and years to break in. But if you get to audition and then you get a meeting with Lauren, people want to read your script. And I just happen to have one because the writing partner that I told you about, she had lied to an executive and said that she had a pilot. I mean, this was like probably a month before I went to audition. She called me and she says, I lied to somebody. I got to have a pilot. We have four days to write it. So we wrote a pilot in four days. We had no idea what we were doing, but it works. And if you're a very naive kid and you have no idea what you're doing, and that's the only thing to go on, you know nothing about structure. You only know what you think would be hilarious. And somehow we squeaked out a pilot that got us gigs. Jeff 00:41:36 That's awesome. JT 00:41:37 That is super awesome. I love that story. I love everything about it. And when I lived in La, I don't even think you can classify that as lying. If someone asks you if you have something. I was playing music, and if someone had asked me if I had a novel, I'm like, yeah, I have a novel. Would you want to read it on Tuesday? Jeny (guest) 00:41:52 Right. JT 00:41:52 And I would have gone and written one and handed it to them. Jeny (guest) 00:41:55 That's genuinely my career advice. It's like lie and figure it out, truly, because they would say, you don't have the experience, but can you do this job? Yes. And then you get into the writer's room and you just figure it out. Jeff 00:42:09 That's awesome. I can't wait for any of my students to listen to this where you started off by saying you don't have to have proper grammar, and then they said, lie and figure it out. Jeny (guest) 00:42:18 I am so sorry. JT 00:42:19 That's what they need to hear, man. Jeff 00:42:20 Yeah, that's exactly what they need to hear. Jeny (guest) 00:42:22 It's horrifyingly. True. JT 00:42:23 My philosophy for everything is, like, anything I'm nervous about doing, I just go to myself like, stupid people are already doing this. I'm sure I can figure it out. Jeff 00:42:29 Yeah, you definitely. Jeny (guest) 00:42:30 I mean, stupid people are all the way at the top. Jeff 00:42:33 All the way through, all the way to the top. Jeny (guest) 00:42:35 All the way up there, for sure. JT 00:42:37 Yeah. I think that's the only question I have for you. Jeff, do you have any questions for Jenny? Jeff 00:42:41 No, because this is the first time I met her, and I didn't know what was going on. JT 00:42:45 That's perfect. All right, cool. Jenny, I think we will let you go back to your life and wrap this thing up. Jeny (guest) 00:42:53 Thank you both so much. This is so fun. I love my cousin Denny, and I can't wait to listen to this whole thing again and your next episode. I'm a fan. Thank you for having me. JT 00:43:03 Thank you so much. Jeff 00:43:04 That's awesome. Yeah. Thanks for coming. It was fun. JT 00:43:06 All right. Awesome. That was Jenny Baton, our guest. Jeff 00:43:09 Yeah, that was awesome. That was fun. JT 00:43:11 That was great, man. It's so cool to be able to talk to people who actually know what the they're talking about. Jeff 00:43:16 Right? JT 00:43:16 Unlike me and you. And I think the plan for guests going forward is going to be kind of like that. We're going to try to bring on people who number one, we think are interesting and who like movies and then hopefully can also teach us some stuff, which should be pretty easy because we don't know anything. Jeff 00:43:29 Absolutely nothing. JT 00:43:30 All right. Worst of this movie, you got the worst. Jeff 00:43:33 No, dude, I don't have a worst. I could not find a part that didn't either need to be there because it fit for the story or I wanted to do a different way. I just liked it. JT 00:43:45 The guy that was accused of murder with Ralph Macchio, with Daniel San Stan, the character's name. He annoyed the crap out of me, but I think he was supposed to be annoying. I think he was acting it exactly right. Every time he would say something, it was annoying. Jeff 00:43:58 Did you read who tried out for that part originally? JT 00:44:01 No one. Jeff 00:44:02 Mr. William Smith, the Fresh Prince. JT 00:44:05 Nice. That would have been a total waste of Will Smith because that guy did nothing except was like a whiney. Jeff 00:44:10 Yeah, agreed. JT 00:44:12 Him I didn't love. But also, I think you could have written that guy to have been the counterpoint to Daniel son and not have been a total sniveling coward who is super annoying. Jeff 00:44:23 I think he acted it pretty well because if you hate him, you were supposed to. I think totally. JT 00:44:28 I'm not like mad at the actor. I just think that part was written to be annoying and I wanted it to be less annoying. Jeff 00:44:32 I didn't have any worse scenes or worse characters, but I did have worse CGI. JT 00:44:36 Yes, it hit me with that. Jeff 00:44:37 They're sleeping in the car after the owl is screeching and it sounds like a Velociraptor outside and it runs outside in the jacket and T shirt and title shoes and that's it shooting the gun. And then it starts raining. It's like I don't see no stalls. And then the lightning strikes. The lightning was wow, I think not better than City Slickers. Not better than City Slickers. JT 00:45:01 T two. Jeff 00:45:02 Yes. It wasn't better than T two either. I didn't like it because it was like the same shot just mirrored, and they did it twice. And then when it started raining, I could see like, you can't see it, but you can see where all the rain is concentrated as it's coming from the sticker or the you can tell there's a rain machine. JT 00:45:21 Like off out of frame. Jeff 00:45:23 And I don't like that. They need to either back it out away so I can't tell or do something else. JT 00:45:29 Again, I don't know anything, but I think when I can tell that there's a rain machine, what's happening is there's not also a wind machine blowing the rain around like it's just dropping straight out, like it's a giant shower head. Jeff 00:45:38 And this looks like one of those ones where it's like spraying out in a circle, kind of up it's right off frame. So it's like super concentrated right in the corner of the screen and then it's coming down. JT 00:45:49 This thing is fantastic. Jeff 00:45:50 We're nitpicking right then the other CGI I didn't like was his face lip tape, which, by the way, I went down a super long wormhole of YouTube. It's like tape that you stick to your face and then it wraps around behind your head and it's got these loops on it and you hook it and then can tighten it down to just, like, give yourself a home facelift, and then you just put a wig over the top of that and you're done. JT 00:46:13 I didn't know that he had that, but it didn't work because I didn't think that he was 27. I thought that he was 48 or whatever age he really was. Jeff 00:46:21 Yeah, well, this is the thing, too. I've seen that movie 1000 million times, and I never saw that. And then I saw it this past time. And then I told Kat, and now she's like, you ruined the movie for me. JT 00:46:33 Yeah. Jeff 00:46:33 You can never see it, right. All I see now is Asian Joe Pesci because his eyes are pulled so freaking tight. JT 00:46:40 Old tech alert. I mean, it's Alabama in the early 90s. It's only old tech. There's a couple of giant computers. All the cars are, like, from the 60s and 70s. Yeah, but I didn't see. Jeff 00:46:50 Like, there was a payphone. She was on a payphone. JT 00:46:53 There was a payphone. And also the district attorney, Jim Trotter, the third calls on an old school, like, Motorola bag phone from his car. Jeff 00:47:01 Yes, I saw that. JT 00:47:03 It was like a freaking. Jeff 00:47:04 What did he ask before he called on that phone? You got a Xerox machine. JT 00:47:07 I got a Xerox machine over there. And you could see in the shot, not only was he calling from the bag phone, but you could see the external antenna from the phone that was mounted to the car window. Jeff 00:47:17 Yeah. And they had the curly wire. It was like a connected for people who are under the age of 30. JT 00:47:23 You might have to go Google Motorola bag phone. But my dad had one. And I remember having to, like, you called it a car phone because you could take it out of the car, bring it into the house and plug it in, and it came in a freaking leather suitcase. Jeff 00:47:34 And it was three point $49 a minute. It was ridiculous. JT 00:47:39 Dude. You had like a set amount of minutes. I remember at one point, my dad's phone had like 40 minutes a month. And of course, you couldn't text. The only thing you do is talk. You had to in your head, plan out what you were going to say if you had to make a call so that you could dial the number. Jeff 00:47:54 Wait a second. Is that why Mr. Chuck and then hang up? Is that why he does that? JT 00:47:59 Dude, that could be why my dad hangs up before the conversation is done. That might have been just a refresh. Jeff 00:48:04 It might be Motorola's fault. JT 00:48:06 They're in the 349 a minute cellphone era, man. Jeff 00:48:09 That's awesome. Also, Judge Haller keeps getting faxes from New York with all the information on it. Also, I wrote down her pink Kodak Disc 3600 camera. Yeah, it's a great one that uses those discs. That was pretty cool. And then the last thing I wrote down was Alabama was using the electric chair, and they still use the electric chair to this day. JT 00:48:33 Of course they do, and it probably works just like the one in the movie did, where it takes like, three times to get killed a guy and his head catches on fire. Jeff 00:48:38 They are one of the seven States that still use as an alternative execution method, and South Carolina is the only one starting 2021 that uses it as a primary way of executing people that's the number one way to do it in South Carolina is catch their head on fire. JT 00:48:54 I think it would be cool for some of those States that are still using the electric chair to at least consider running it off solar power. Just go green with it. Jeff 00:49:01 Yeah, I don't think that's the thing. JT 00:49:02 No, not so much. The only other stuff I had for the worst, I already mentioned Daniel Sans mustache. I hated it. And then the last one, Vinnie and Mona Lisa keep getting woken up early in the morning anywhere they're staying by all these crazy loud sounds. So there's a bunch of shots, like scenes that start with them in bed together, and I don't know if you noticed, but when they're in bed together, she's laying on her back and he's, like, laying on his stomach, but he's laying one whole arm across her. Jeff 00:49:27 Yeah. JT 00:49:28 And she's kind of hugged up to them, and then they both jolt out of bed. And every time I was like, who the sleeps on top of someone like that. Jeff 00:49:35 Yeah, dude. When he lays in bed and gets in bed after reading and pulls the covers over and she's, like, facing her back to the camera and he puts his arm around her, it looks like he is trying to suffocate her. You're preaching to the choir on this one. We have a remarkably large bed in my bedroom. We have separate covers so we don't have to fight over that. JT 00:49:57 Dude, if I could fit a second King size bed next to my current King size bed, I would do a King size bed each, because even the King size bed is not room enough. Don't touch me while I'm sleeping. Definitely don't have an arm across me. What the Hell's the matter with you people? Jeff 00:50:10 Just trying to arm bar you and just hold you down. JT 00:50:12 I mean, I'm saying, like, if I'm Joe Pesci and I'm 48 and I'm in bed with 27 year old Marissa Tommy, I probably am trying to put as much of my body on top of her body as I can get away with, but when I saw it in the movie, I was like, no one sleeps like that. Who's been together for ten years. No touchy. Jeff 00:50:27 Yeah, I'm with you. And it's probably hot in Alabama. And those places didn't look like they had a lot of AC going. JT 00:50:32 No, definitely not. Jeff 00:50:33 That's why he's sleeping in an oversized Yankee T shirt with no underwear. JT 00:50:39 Yes, give us our fake Hammond ad reading. Jeff 00:50:41 This is a deep cut. I don't know if you're going to know this one. At Bonanza Steakhouse Buffet and Hammond, you can get all you can eat steak and it's cooked to perfection. And not only will it be the best steak you've ever eaten, but you could have all you care to eat, but you don't have to take my word for it. Come visit us at 14 175 US Highway 190 in Hammond and Place Centipede or Gallagher. While you wait, you can have your baby, Mr. Randy's mom wait on you. For an extraordinary experience. The all you can eat fresh tasty food bar comes with unlimited steak for 749 and had endless golden fried shrimp for only 199. Don't forget to visit our Sunday bar for dessert. Bonanza Steakhouse Buffet located inside the Best Western and Hammond near I 55 down the street from Kmart and Del Champs. All of our employees at Bonanza Steakhouse Buffet have been vaccinated for hepatitis A. JT 00:51:31 If you want to know whether a Steakhouse is high quality, if the restaurant includes the word buffet or inside the Best Western, you can rest assured that it is not high quality steak. That's awesome. That brings me to Hi, I'm Troy McClure. Jeff 00:51:45 You may remember me from such nature films as Earwigs OOH and man vs. Nature, The Road to Victory. JT 00:51:54 I got two for Troy McClure for this movie. The first one is the automotive expert played by the actor James Rebhorn. Jeff 00:52:00 Yeah. JT 00:52:01 He was in Scent of a Woman, Basic Instinct, Independence Day, Talented Mr. Ripley. He's been in a ton of movies. As soon as I saw him, I was like, that guy. I definitely know that guy from Stuff. Jeff 00:52:09 I recognize his eyebrows. And Talented Mr. Ripley is what I thought of first. I love that movie. Unknown speaker 00:52:15 Yeah. JT 00:52:15 And the other one is the Sheriff. Jeff 00:52:17 Who was he on? I didn't recognize it. JT 00:52:19 The Sheriff. The actor's name is Bruce McGill. He was in a ton of stuff. Animal House Collateral. But to me, he will always and forever be Jack Dalton on McGiver. Jeff 00:52:28 Yeah, I got you. And as soon as I was talking about my cousin Vinny with a guy from work, Chris, and that's the first name he pulled out of the hat when he looked at it, he was like, oh, man, I didn't know he was in this. Yeah, that's awesome. JT 00:52:41 I used to watch MacGyver a lot when I was a kid, and I was like, I was in MacGyver. I remember him. Jeff 00:52:44 Yeah. There's a new MacGyver, and it's not MacGyver at all. And I don't like it past. Yes. I didn't write down you may Remember Me stuff, but I did write down the four people of note that tried out for the Joe Pesci role. JT 00:52:56 Oh, nice. It hit me. Jeff 00:52:57 It was Danny DeVito, John Lovitz, Jim Belushi all took a pass on it. Andrew Dice Clay is actually the person that it was kind of in a roundabout way written for and was going to do it and it didn't work out. And apparently every time it comes on TV, like in his book, he talked about like every time it comes on TV, he tells his daughter, yeah, that could have been me. That's messed up. But Joe Pesci can't do any better than that if you're going to be compared to anybody. So it was going to be dice and it turned out not to be. I think it worked out, yes. JT 00:53:28 I'm very happy that it wasn't dice because I was never a big fan of his comedy, much less his acting. Jeff 00:53:33 You got to have a special place in your heart for somebody like that if you're going to like him. JT 00:53:37 Nice. Anything else? Jeff 00:53:39 Yes, I did. So you talked about the writer Dale. JT 00:53:41 Dale Honor. Jeff 00:53:42 Yeah. He wrote Pushing Number nine daughter Rat and scheduled Supply Dayton Eddie, the director, did Clue. Clue with Tim Roth and all those guys. Unknown speaker 00:53:51 Yeah. JT 00:53:51 Not to be confused with Clueless. Jeff 00:53:53 Yeah, not Clueless, but Clue like the board game. And on the same year he directed Distinguished Gentlemen Nice. And he did the whole Nine Yards with Matthew Perry and Bruce Willis. And he did Fighting Temptations with Cuba Good and Jr and Beyonce. JT 00:54:06 I like those movies. Jeff 00:54:07 Yeah. They had some other movies that I liked. What else? JT 00:54:09 Five questions. Is it okay for kids? What age? I have to assume not okay for kids. There's like 35 F bombs in this movie. Jeff 00:54:16 I think there's probably more than that. It seemed like if you want to teach your kids how to curse, this movie is the frigging Sesame Street of dirty words. They really paint a picture with dirty words. They work in profanity the way other artists work in oil and clay, like they killed it. So there's a lot of that. The judge smokes if smoking is an issue, sex. There's some make out stuff, but not really. There's a dead clerk. He shoots the gun in the air. He's got the one punch where he just jumps at JT and hits them at the same time, the flying punch. So all of that, I would say, depending on your child's exposure and awareness of profanity, I would give it somewhere between eleven and 15. JT 00:54:58 I'm with that. I don't care about profanity. So the sooner my kid can watch this, the better. Jeff 00:55:01 Yeah, absolutely. JT 00:55:02 Would this movie get made if it were pitched now? Jeff 00:55:04 Yeah, I think so. JT 00:55:05 I think so, too, man. I mean, a fish out of water comedy with some people from Brooklyn down in Alabama defending against a murder case. I love that. I love that idea. Let's do that. Jeff 00:55:14 So is it a movie or TV show? JT 00:55:15 I think it's got to be a movie. It's fun to come up with ways to turn these into TV shows. But this, I think. Jeff 00:55:20 Would be such a good movie if it was concise again. It doesn't get too long then. Yes. I say movies. JT 00:55:25 Who do you have for the lead if we remake it? Jeff 00:55:28 I sat and thought, who could I have to do this? And I swear I couldn't think of anybody. Like, I don't want to change any characters. I hope you have some people. JT 00:55:37 I got one. But I think you're going to like it. Jeff 00:55:39 Yes. JT 00:55:40 In honor of one of our favorite movies that we'll do later this year, A League of Their Own, I propose Vinny. Rosie O'Donnell, 22, 22. She does the freaking great Brooklyn accent. She's so funny. She's so sarcastic. And for Mona Lisa, Vito Marisa Tome, I just put her back there. Jeff 00:55:58 Keep that going. Unknown speaker 00:55:59 Yeah. JT 00:56:00 Dude, she still looks amazing. She could perfectly play it. Rosie O'Donnell And Marisa Tome, if you see that we're remaking My Cousin Vinny, and those are the Vinny and Mona Lisa. Tell me you wouldn't be excited. Jeff 00:56:09 It depends. Is Rosie O'Donnell's going to run out onto a balcony wearing just an oversized Yankee shirt and some underwear with Dick holes in the front? JT 00:56:19 Dude, imagine Rosie O'Donnell in the boots and the shirt. Like, out on the porch just shooting a gun at you. I think it would be hilarious. I think she'd be great. Jeff 00:56:29 Yeah. I tried so hard to come up with somebody. I got nothing. JT 00:56:33 I did, too. I don't know any modern actors in the 20 to 40 range that I think could pull this off. I know they're out there, but I don't know who they are. Jeff 00:56:43 Yes, I don't either. So I say let's pitch it again, and we do it just now with the same actors. JT 00:56:49 That would be great, too. Can you still watch and enjoy this movie in 2022? Jeff 00:56:53 Yes, and also in 2023 in 2021 and constantly for the rest of my life. I know I'm going to watch it a hundred more times, dude. JT 00:57:01 This is one for sure that I would very happily watch a couple of times a year. And I would never be upset if it was. I mean, I don't have TV anymore, so stuff doesn't just appear in front of me. But if I was in a hotel and I was like, oh, what am I going to watch? Like, My Cousin Vinny, Bam, done. Like, My Cousin Vinny. Like Fifth Element. Like, there are movies that if they're on, I'll just turn them on and watch them. Just watch them. Jeff 00:57:21 Yes. You can find it on all your major platforms. You can rent it for 399. JT 00:57:25 You can. It's streaming on HBO Max, and you can rent it for 399. Thanks so much for listening. The next episode will come out the day before my birthday, and I just looked up what it is and happy birthday to me. Next up, Under Siege. Jeff 00:57:39 Oh, man, start writing your quips, dude. JT 00:57:42 I've been trying to come up with some Steven Segal Zingers. I got a couple and I'm stealing them from all over the internet. None of this is original but I just can't wait under Siege 92 classic and I assure you the only Stephen Segal movie we will ever do on this podcast. Jeff 00:57:56 Unless somebody pays $100. JT 00:57:58 Unless someone pays $100. That's right. That option is still out there. Please feel free to subscribe review. Leave us a review if you'd like to do you want to leave us a good review to counteract the bad review? If you want to go to Movielife crisis.com and leave us an email follow us on Twitter you can buy us chimney dogs support the arts through our website. Jeff 00:58:14 Support the arts. JT 00:58:15 We are the arts. Jeff 00:58:17 Let's take Jenny again. That's fun. JT 00:58:18 Yeah, Jenny. Thanks so much. That was awesome. Yeah, you blend. Jeff 00:58:22 Oh, yeah, you blend. JT 00:58:27 Thanks for listening to movie life crisis. Please subscribe rate and review and remember don't drive angry.
SYLVIE DOUGLIS 00:00:00 Npr. ADRIAN MA 00:00:11 Ever since she was little, Dorothy Brown dreamed of someday becoming an attorney. DOROTHY BROWN 00:00:16 I wanted to be a civil rights lawyer like Thurgood Marshall, who was one of my heroes. STACEY VANEK SMITH 00:00:22 But, you know, life sometimes as a way of making us reconsider our hopes and dreams. And Dorothy says by the time she got to College. DOROTHY BROWN 00:00:29 I decided I wanted to be a lawyer, but I didn't want it to have anything to do with race. I decided it would be too painful for me to deal with racism every day as a black woman and then have to go to work and deal with the substantive law that dealt with racism. ADRIAN MA 00:00:48 So she went searching for a new dream and found it, of all places, in a tax accounting class. DOROTHY BROWN 00:00:55 And that's when the light bulb went off. Oh, my God, I love this. I want to do tax law because the only color that matters is green. ADRIAN MA 00:01:01 The IRS has reams of rules and regulations governing who pays for what and how much, and race never enters the equation. At least that is what Dorothy thought. This is the indicator from Planet Money. I'm Adrian Ma. STACEY VANEK SMITH 00:01:18 And I'm Stacey Vanished Smith. It is tax season, and even if you find yourself plowing through pages and pages of mind denumbing forms, you will not be asked to tick a box declaring your race or ethnicity. But Dorothy Fuji's, tax law at Emory University, has come to believe that race and tax are closely intertwined. She wrote a book about it called The Whiteness of wealth. And when we return, Dorothy explains how taxes and race intersect. SYLVIE DOUGLIS 00:01:50 This message comes from NPR Sponsor Fundraise, a platform that makes investing in high end real estate easy. You tell fundrise your investing goals and fundrise puts your money into the real estate deals that are right for you. Sign up for firstname.lastname@example.org NPR. Ads 00:02:08 There are millions of books out there just waiting for you. But how to keep up? Introducing NPR's Book of the Day. Every weekday, we feature some of our favorite conversations with authors and writers about their latest books. You can check it out in about the time it takes to walk the dog. Happy reading. ADRIAN MA 00:02:28 It took years for Dorothy to even consider studying the relationship between taxes and race. She had already gone to law school, got a special degree in tax law, became a tax attorney. And then she read an article by a mentor of hers, a law professor named Jerome Culp. DOROTHY BROWN 00:02:44 And in his article, he said, how do you know there isn't a race and tax problem if you don't look? And I thought, what race and tax? So I picked up the phone and I called him and I said, Jerome, I'm going to do something about race and tax. I have no idea what it's going to be, but I'm going to do something. And he said, good for you. STACEY VANEK SMITH 00:03:03 So Dorothy hangs up and starts looking for data. DOROTHY BROWN 00:03:07 And that's when I found out the IRS doesn't publish statistics by rates, and it's like, I'm going to do what? ADRIAN MA 00:03:15 Yeah. So as Dorothy found out, the IRS isn't like, say, the US Census or the Department of justice or Education or housing. Those agencies need to collect info on race and ethnicity because it helps them enforce civil rights laws. And that just was not the mandate for the IRS. So she had to get creative piecing together whatever she could find from other agencies and researchers on race and taxes. And eventually a pattern started to emerge. DOROTHY BROWN 00:03:44 So what my research showed, provision after provision after provision is these tax subsidies were made with white taxpayers in mind and not black taxpayers in mind. STACEY VANEK SMITH 00:03:54 A prime example of this is the joint tax return for married couples. This provision can be traced back almost a century ago to a wealthy white couple from Seattle named Charlotte and Henry Seaborn. Charlotte was a stay at home spouse. Henry was an executive at a shipbuilding company. And back in the 1920s, they were looking for a way to cut their tax bill. DOROTHY BROWN 00:04:15 What he decided to do, what he and his tax adviser, let's be clear, decided to do was to shift half of his income to Charlotte. If he was able to shift half of his income to his wife, then the tax rate that each of them would pay would be significantly less than if he was taxed on all of it. ADRIAN MA 00:04:37 This is just something they decided to do. DOROTHY BROWN 00:04:39 And it wasn't there was no legal precedent for this. So the IRS gets it and said, you can't do that. And they go to court and ultimately go to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court said, you know, you can do that. So we get the joint return because Henry and Charlotte decided they didn't want to pay as much in taxes. STACEY VANEK SMITH 00:04:59 I mean, who doesn't want to pay less in taxes, right? This is probably a universal human law. But here's the thing. The joint tax return essentially amounts to a marriage bonus, but mainly for couples like the Seaborne, where one spouse brings in virtually all the income. And generally speaking, that is less likely to be the situation for black couples than it is for white couples. ADRIAN MA 00:05:23 And one big reason for that is that black people historically have faced discrimination in the labor market. In fact, studies show they often still do. So it's more often the case for black couples that both partners have to work to make ends meet. And even for higher income households, Dorothy's data shows black couples are more likely than white ones to be two income households. So bottom line, that means black couples are generally less likely to be able to take advantage of the marriage bonus. STACEY VANEK SMITH 00:05:51 Dorothy saw this mirrored in her own parent situation. Her dad was a plumber and her mom was a nurse. And even though they were filing their taxes jointly, Dorothy was confused as to why their tax bill wasn't lower. DOROTHY BROWN 00:06:03 And it clicked. This is why my parents are paying so much in taxes, because my parents made almost identical amounts of income. ADRIAN MA 00:06:14 And in her research, Dorothy found other ways the tax codes seem to overlook. Folks like her parents take employer retirement plans, things like 403 B, 401 KS. These allow employees to stock away money for retirement taxfree. But because of past and present discrimination, black people are less likely to have the kinds of jobs that offer these plans. DOROTHY BROWN 00:06:37 And even when they are in jobs that are eligible for those retirement accounts, they don't take advantage of them. And why might that be? Because research shows, for example, black College graduates are more likely to be sending money to their parents, to their grandparents, to extended family, whereas white College graduates are more likely to receive money in the form of gifts and inheritances from their parents and grandparents. It isn't that black people are not frugal. It's that we have more financial responsibilities because we have relatives who came up under Jim Crow who, like my father, were denied entrance into the Plumbers Union because he was black. And it wasn't until he got in the Plumbers Union that he got a job that came with tax free retirement benefits. STACEY VANEK SMITH 00:07:32 Systemic racism in housing, education, and employment has made it harder for generations of black families to accumulate wealth, and that means less money to invest in stocks or buy a home, which both come with tax benefits. ADRIAN MA 00:07:46 And just to be clear, Dorothy is not saying tax laws were necessarily designed to discriminate. She is saying that those rules were written mostly by wealthy white dudes during a time when discrimination was rampant. And so the tax code helps preserve the effects of that historic discrimination. STACEY VANEK SMITH 00:08:05 So knowing that what should be done to make the system more fair. For starters, Dorothy says the IRS should collect data on race and ethnicity. This would help the public understand how the tax code impacts different groups. ADRIAN MA 00:08:18 On top of that, Dorothy argues for simplifying the rules. She says get rid of provisions that have disproportionately benefited wealthy white people. After all, why should single income married couples be taxed differently than two income households? STACEY VANEK SMITH 00:08:32 Or why should homeowners get a break and not renters? ADRIAN MA 00:08:35 Why should income from investments and inheritances be taxed differently from wages? Dorothy says they shouldn't be insured. This, of course, would be huge changes to the tax code. That would probably get a lot of pushback. But Dorothy says they'd also benefit the majority of taxpayers of all races. Plus, she says, if she could be convinced that this would be a step towards racial justice, maybe others can be, too. DOROTHY BROWN 00:08:58 I was educated to not think race had anything to do with tax, so my eyes have been open, the scales have fallen off, and now the little girl won like the little girl in me who wanted to be a civil rights lawyer went out at the end of the day, it just took me a couple of decades to get there. ADRIAN MA 00:09:24 If you want to go deeper on this subject, check out Dorothy Brown's book, the whiteness of wealth. I read it and I can't recommend it enough. This episode was produced by Corey bridges. It was fact checked by Taylor Washington. Vietnam is our senior producer our Editors, Kim Cannon and the indicators of production of NPR. Ending 00:09:47 The US and the EU are imposing harsh sanctions on Russia because of its war in Ukraine. One of the main targets Russia's banks. But Russia has spent years preparing for these sanctions. How they do it? Listen to the planet money podcast from NPR.
Simone Ross 00:00:05 Thanks for listening to Ted Tech. I'm Simone Ross, the tech curator here. How will artificial intelligence change our world? Last year, AI expert and former head of Google China, Kaifuli and Stanley Chen, one of China's top science fiction talents, cowrote a book to explore just that. It's called AI 2041 Ten Visions for the Future. Each chapter is an imaginative, creative story accompanied by an analysis of the tech and an explanation of why such science fiction might actually be plausible stories of separated twins who have their own AI companions or lovers who have never met over 20 years of pandemic living with each story offering a unique framework to think about what our future could look like. I interviewed Kaifu and Stanley at a Ted membership event in 2021.Simone Ross 00:01:13 Thank you so much for joining us for today's event featuring technologist and AI expert Dr. Kaifuli and science fiction writer Stanley Chen. They are co authors of the new book AI 2041 Ten Visions for Our Future, which will be released here in the US on September 14. Kaifu, Stanley, thank you both so much for joining us. Kaitu, I'm going to start with you. Why write this book together? Kaifu Lee 00:01:40 Well, it is my belief that AI is the most important technology for mankind in the history of mankind, and it's important for everyone to really understand it, its implications and challenges. But just reading technology descriptions such as the ones I have written as a technologist and investor is just not reachable to everyone. And I think it's so important that if there is a way to make the storytelling really interesting and engaging and even entertaining, then more people can access it and can kind of see where the future holds. So with that idea in mind, I talked to Stanley about co authoring the book with him writing the stories, and that's what hopefully will draw a lot more people to it. Simone Ross 00:02:29 Wonderful. And Stanley, I believe part of the process was you wrote the story first, and then Kaifu would write the accompanying sort of explanation. Did that constrain your imagination or your creativity in any way? Knowing that there had to be an explanation of how the technology would actually work. Stanley Chen 00:02:50 I'll say the process is not exactly like what you imagine. So I think both Kaifu and I, we built up the roadmap together. We'll discuss in depth, like how AI technology will evolve over the next 20 years and which points of technology we should package and put into different stories. And then I come up with some directions attached to each story, and then we will discuss back and forth, and then I get down to write a story, and then Kafu will write tech analysis accordingly. So I think from the very beginning, from scratch, we are collaborating very close, and I don't think it will restrict my imagination, but the other way around. It trigger and inspire a lot of my imagination based on the realistic facts of AI technologies. I used to work by myself, so I can do whatever I love. But now it seems like the conversation and interaction really brings some chemistry into the story. It's really like dancing, right? Simone Ross 00:04:10 Stanley and Kaifu dancing duet is what we have here. Great. So I'd like to understand a little bit, Kaifu, from you. We've been talking about the potential of AI for such a long time now, decades even. And what's different now? Kaifu Lee 00:04:34 Well, you know, I know that more than everyone else because I did my PhD in 1988, and then I worked for Apple, Microsoft, Google. My CEO always asked me, when will AI be real? And that's really just happened in the last five years. If we look at how much progress has been made to date, this is not going to 2041. This is just to date. Think about AlphaGo, AlphaGo zero, Alpha fold GPT-3, autonomous vehicles, the use of AI in all Internet companies, the use of AI in financial applications, and all the robots that's working and all the RPA technologies that are displacing white collar work has really been blossoming in the last five years. And I think that is just the beginning for much more is to come in the next 20. Simone Ross 00:05:27 So our future is finally here. We have some questions from the audience. So this one is from Estefania. Do you think there's a limit to AI since it's a human creation, or will it reach a point of self development? Kaifu Lee 00:05:43 Yeah, I'll take that first. So AI actually is not completely programmed. It's programmed to have a goal, it's programmed to have an architecture, but then it learns by itself on more data. And the more data that's fed. As long as you have enough processor, the better it gets. And that is what has enabled the huge progress in the last five years. It's not just smart people inventing new algorithms to solve all these problems, but it's people framing it in a certain way and then letting the machine learn for itself. So the self organization, self learning, and the fact that it gets better with every ten times increase in data, it gets better. That is the amazing and sometimes scary thing about AI. Now, about AI's ability to self program. I don't doubt that will happen to some extent, but so far, AI still requires a certain level of direction from a programmer, and then it will learn under the architecture set out by the programmer. So in the context of the book AI 2041, I think you will see AI that is highly intelligent, very interactive, gets better than you think on a lot of capabilities, and it keeps growing. But it's not growing, as many people would assume in previous science fiction, that it becomes a superset of humans, but rather it grows in many directions on many things we cannot do. But humans still maintain our soul, our creativity, our ability to love. And that is I think something that I don't see replacing by AI in the next 20 years. Simone Ross 00:07:27 So we will sort of maintain our humanity and we won't be aged out by the AI. Stanley, do you have some thoughts on that? Stanley Chen 00:07:36 So I think it all depends on the three key factors, like computation power, like the algorithm, and also I think the data. So as Kaifu mentioned right now, I couldn't see that the singularity point will come in over the next 20 years. But as a science fiction writer, I'm pretty looking forward to that day. Even maybe it will somehow conquer the human beings. Simone Ross 00:08:09 Okay, conquer human beings. That sounds a little scary. Okay, another question from the audience, this one from me. Dan, I believe this is directed to Kaiu in a recent interview with Peter Diamonds. You were talking about longevity and 150 years lifespan. How do you reconcile this prediction, based on science and tech advancement, with the reality of ever increasing prevalence of chronic diseases at a decreasing age onset? Kaifu Lee 00:08:42 Okay, I don't think I quite made 150 year projection. Peter may have I'm a strong believer in that AI will use a lot of data, much more than medical doctors and scientists have ever been able to collect, including our genetic sequencing, our MRI and scans, and the full blood test with all the markers. And with all that data coming in from a large number of people, it will be able to compare any individual to a prototypical healthy person and measure the gap and figure out ways to improve. Whether it is sleep or reducing stress or eating better, or nutrients or medicine or exercising. That is something that is not so far off. I am actually personally experimenting with the company we invested in. I have been collecting all of my data extensively and for the past year, and I've been measuring my blood for now against people who are at my age and five years younger, ten years younger, five years older, et cetera. And it's given me very sensible advice now with the human doctor interpreting the AI output, of course, and telling me, okay, you're really not exercising enough. We should not think of aging as the inevitable, irreversible reality. We can't live forever. Our body has a certain expiration date. But I think there are many ways to make ourselves healthier. It's also people say, oh, I don't want to live forever, I'll be miserable, I'll be sick. The whole idea is not longevity for longevity sake, but it's how to get you to be younger, more energetic and more healthier. And that's correlated with living longer. So I believe this will happen. And I don't know how long we can extend our age. So there's no reason in the next 20 years we can't be in the mid high 80s, in another 20 years, maybe in the 90s, even up to 100. That's definitely imaginable, based on what I have experienced and the gap that I think remains to make us healthy in a precision medicine kind of way. That we just haven't collected all the data health wise. We're in the Yahoo days, right? Yahoo days of the Internet. That's where we're at. We haven't yet discovered Google, Facebook and all the rest. So we're just collecting the data. And I think the best is yet to come. Simone Ross 00:11:15 I love that we're in the Yahoo days. Another question from the audience while we're talking about improving things, this one's from Monica. What's the impact of AI for education? Kaifu Lee 00:11:26 So I believe if you look at all the industries, education is one that has changed the least over the last 100 years. Right? The way we communicate by Zoom, entertain ourselves with iPhones and VR, and work working remotely is completely changed. It seems totally different. Education is still one, which is mostly a teacher giving a lecture to all, giving a test to all, giving homeworks to all. It's basically one size fit all kind of approach. And that's understandable historically because one could not afford a teacher for every student. But I think going forward, I think we want a teacher for every student because every student has different weaknesses, different preferences, different hobbies. Some would score better if we cast the problems as a basketball or as dancing or something that excites them. And also if you can imagine an AI teacher companion that is watching over each student, helping with them, and making learning almost a gamification, a fun experiment. So a lot of the content can be taught by this personalized, targeted AI companion teacher. We think about targeting as a bad thing because Facebook targets us with things that makes us addicted or extremely in views. But if it's targeting us to help us learn, then it's aligned with our goals. I think that is a huge power of AI that can make a one AI teacher per student kind of a future. And human teachers don't disappear at all. You still need human teachers to help with things like encouragement, personal connection, understanding values and learning, creativity, and encouraging critical thinking and teaching about communication and teamwork and EQ and all that, then becomes a much better education, much more targeted and also personalized. Maybe Stanley can talk about the story in which he talked about AI education. Simone Ross 00:13:41 Yes, Stanley, go ahead. Stanley Chen 00:13:43 Yeah. I highly recommend. Everyone who has interest in how AI could change the education industry should read the story. Twins Barrel is talking about two orphan boys who were adopted by two different family which both use AI companion teacher in different ways. So it's not only about customized algorithm for each student, but also now we have this kind of online class like every day on Zoom, but it feels isolated. So people might feel lonely when you spending a lot of time on a platform, but actually you couldn't feel each other. But in our imagination, with MPL natural language processing and XR technology like AR VR. So actually, you can have this kind of realistic presence of each other, and it's not isolating each other, but to reconnect each other. So hopefully when you finish the story, you feel the future of education is so hopeful and so warmth and full of empathy and passionate of our next generation future. Simone Ross 00:15:03 Yeah, right. Another question from the audience, this one from Fabio. I'm going to paraphrase it a little bit. So what is the impact of AI on poorer countries? How do we ensure that this is somewhat evenly distributed? Kaifu can go first? Kaifu Lee 00:15:21 Sure. I think in the short term there are already efforts in place to make sure that big countries don't just come in and take all the apps and make them use locally and take all the data away and extract money without giving anything back. So I think having some short term laws and regulations to ensure that if your citizens data is being used to monetize some big countries app that you're properly compensated for it, and then that money can go back into the economy because really, data is incredibly valuable and that near term measure needs to be done. In the longer term, I believe each country needs to develop its specialty. And as I describe in the book, it's really not just about AI. Sometimes it's about cultures that have special characteristics. Some culture really value craftsmanship, others really value giving back. Others value service, others value family. And I think globally speaking, AI will end up creating a lot of value, a lot of economic value. And it's not just AI, but also the advances in synthetic biology and energy and new materials. So things will become cheaper and better so that in the future more people won't have to do routine jobs for a living. They can do what they like, and they can contribute positive energy. And also the ideas can help globally. So I think some countries might want to focus on tourism and the exciting things about its civilization and storytelling. So I think a lot of those will become possible. I think service industry will become huge. So today people are using products branded, invented in the US, manufactured in China, which is why these two countries are a little bit a lot more wealthier right now. But I think in the future, what will be of the greatest value is not just the products, because products will become commoditized with all the things we describe in the book. And what will value the most is service and human touch, service and things that have strong cultural elements. So I think those are possible directions as well. And of course, all that said, every country should make sure people who are strong in learning about technology and algorithms, and AI should get to do so so that the country does not fall behind, because this is an incredibly important technology. Look at how much industrial revolution has helped us become a leader in the globally. And I think AI is another potential equalizer or unequalizer. So countries should really value maybe not AI for everyone, but for those who are interested and skilled. Simone Ross 00:18:24 You said that the AI should be sort of a great equalizer, but also potentially not. So Tom is asking why we should trust AI scientists to develop these powerful technologies, and I'd like to add on to that. Why should we trust our governments and regulators to help get us to a more equal society as they claim to want to do? Kaifu Lee 00:18:49 I'll take a shot and then Stanley can add to that. Well, we should first make sure everyone's educated so we can all become participants, watch dogs, and raise our opinion if the programmers and scientists and corporations and governments aren't doing their job. Hopefully the book describes clearly that many of these problems of AI are actually externalities. They're not intentionally creating harm for the individuals, but they're done as a side effect. So I think the key thing then is AI scientists are bad. People don't trust them, but it's rather make sure they're educated to understand with greater power comes greater responsibility. So what must they do when they program an algorithm to make sure it doesn't have bias or unfairness or treat women or minorities unfairly, et cetera? And also better tools should be developed. So even if a scientist is negligent, it catches it upfront. And also with large internet companies, some of what they do is perhaps just out of greed. Others are maybe not well thought out, and some of it is just unintentional. So there needs to be watchdogs. I don't think we can abdicate our responsibility and say, hey, government, you fix the Internet companies, break them up and punish them and make them pay big fines. That doesn't solve the root of the problem. The root of the problem is that AI is so powerful with its algorithm, so powerful that large companies cannot resist using it to make money unintentionally and sometimes intentionally at our expense. So I think the key issue is how to align the large companies interest with ours. Simone Ross 00:20:44 So it sounds like you think that we collectively also have somewhat of a responsibility and role in driving where this sort of AI future can take us. So Stanley, I have a question for you. This one is also from the audience, from Hannah. What AI advancements that already exist do you think are stranger than fiction? Stanley Chen 00:21:08 Yes, I think there are a few things actually make me think like science fiction writers is kind of lack of imagination in reality. So for example, like this fake. There's something I don't think in previous science fiction had a lot of description on the things like how people using technology to transfer their face, their voice, their movement to pretend one another. Meanwhile, it's not for good, but it's doing bad things and how we can fight against those misbehaviors. So another thing is like right now, I think AI is more capable than human being on recognizing micro expression, even detecting all these more info in your voice, in your tongue, and they can foresee what your mental status is and what kind of reaction and response you might going to make. So I think fundamentally we will learn a lot from AI because it's a mirror. It's like human beings, but it can review so many hidden structures and hidden knowledge from this huge amount of data, which a human being as a collective group couldn't really interpret deeply enough. But AI can. Simone Ross 00:22:44 So moving on to something where AI probably does have a big impact. Another audience question, this time from Jen, in the next 20 years, will some aspects of industry be fully replaced by AI? And will AI cause unemployment? Stanley Chen 00:23:03 It's so easy to be replaced by machines. In another story called The Job Savior, and it actually set in California, San Francisco is talking about how people should be taken care of when there's mass scale of structuralized unemployment happened and along with the development of AI, technology invaded into different industries. So our thought is like, Besides basic income, that's one solution. But I think work is much more than making money. It's about dignity. It's about self actualization. It's about how you finding your position in the family and among others in the society. So we have this kind of idea. We should use and leverage AI technology to do the job allocation if we can live up to 150. So there's no way that you only do one or two or three jobs, right? So I think AI should totally work to help people to retrain and relocate in a new job and to help them to find their own value in this highly uncertainty dynamic change of job change. Simone Ross 00:24:41 This question comes from a bunch of people. What scares you most about AI in the future? Stanley Chen 00:24:49 I think the most scary thing about AI is it can be an amplifier to broke up all the negativity in humanity. So maybe you've heard from the news, like there's a trouble on Twitter from Microsoft, and it learned all the cursing and bias and discrimination during the interaction and conversation with the trove. So I think that something really scares me because during this kind of feedback loop, it might trigger even more like darker side of human beings. Right now we have this kind of extremists on the Internet, on the social media, but whether we understand if they're talking with the trouble or not. So maybe some terrorists were using this way to trigger some extreme emotions and protesting virtually. So I think that's something that scares me in the future. Simone Ross 00:26:02 What excites you most about AI? So Kaiser, you first, and then Stanley. Kaifu Lee 00:26:09 Well, I've already talked a bit about getting AI aligned with our interests. In some sense, it's addressing Stanley's concern that AI would target each person and make us think things that are against our interests. But let's suppose for the moment that we can somehow get at least a set of people to program AI in a way that aligns itself with our future interests. I think that's something that's incredibly exciting. Tristan Harris talks about it none of us know how to do it. It's perhaps a new app ecosystem. Maybe it's a new device we're all willing to pay money for things that enrich us, things that make us happier, more knowledgeable. So if only we can figure out how to incentivize people to build that app and get monetized for it, and you got to align the economic interest to make that happen. That's probably the one very important thing that excites me. The other thing I would mention is that everything is double edged sword. We talk about job displacement, routine work being done by AI. But I would ask that at the end of the day, in 20 years, let's say all the routine jobs or 90% of the routine jobs are displaced by AI. Does that put us in a better or worse place? Right. Assume we help people transition from routine jobs to better jobs, and we educate our prosperity in a responsible, constructive way so that people are pursuing their interest in their talents and not repeating what's routine, then we will have done something that is phenomenal for mankind, namely that we will have liberated humanity from ever having to do routine work so that we can do things that we were really put on this Earth to do. So that's probably the number one thing that excites me. But the road to get there is treacherous and dangerous and full of potholes. Simone Ross 00:28:14 Stanley, what excites you? Stanley Chen 00:28:16 It might totally change the way we do the scientific research. For example, now we're using Alpha fold to predict the protein structure, and we're using computer vision to dig out the connector of human brain. So I think there's a lot of things ahead of us, a way for AI to help human beings to understand more about the fundamental mechanism of ourselves and the world. So I think that is a paradigm shift in the future. So with the help of AI, I think we are going to fix a lot of unsolvable problems, including climate change. So I think that's very not positive future ahead of us. But I think we should hold onto that positive imagination because we try to create the future we should start from. Imagine what? Simone Ross 00:29:18 Well, I think Positivity is a great way and a great place to end. So it's going to hopefully liberate humanity from drudgery and re us to do the things that we were put on the Earth to do. And it is going to hopefully help solve things like climate change for us. I think that pretty much wraps up our time for today. So thank you both so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. And thank you, Kaifu. And.
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