Making Conversations about selling on Amazon Count

{( speakerName('A') )}

Lesley is one of the few people that I have met on my travels that actually understands how Amazon, do we say, works or doesn't work? (Laughs) But my guest today, Lesley, she can put all things Amazon right in your world. So please, Lesley, just introduce yourself better than I can.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Well, thank you so much for having me here. I am co founder of Riverbend Consulting. I've been a seller on Amazon since 2010, but Riverbend is almost five years old, and we help sellers who are third party sellers and vendors also to solve their problems on Amazon. And I can tell you why we're called Riverbend.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Oh, please do. Yes.

{( speakerName('B') )}

So, way back in the day, when I started selling on Amazon, people called it selling on the river, with Amazon being the river. So river bend, things take a turn and we fix them. And we call our team members River Benders.

{( speakerName('A') )}

I love that. Do you know what's coming to mind is that they come to you on one river bend and they leave on another river bend, and that is the goal. And you've got quite a lot of River Benders, haven't you?

{( speakerName('B') )}

We do. Our team is more than 75 people.

{( speakerName('A') )}

That's incredible. In five years

{( speakerName('B') )}

And many of them are ex Amazon employees. Amazon has created a lot of opportunity for people to work there, but then eventually, a lot of them, they burn out. They don't want to be there anymore. It's a very intense work environment, and we have been the beneficiary of that because a lot of our team members, they just kind of had enough of being at Amazon, wanted to do something different and help sellers instead of feeling like they were always pitted against sellers. So that's what they do. They come on our team and they understand how things work, or, as you said, don't work inside of Amazon and then help sellers to navigate so that they can continue selling.

{( speakerName('A') )}

This is what's really interesting to me, Leslie, is that people see Amazon as... and it is, it's kind of like the online shopping dominator, isn't it? However, you're just proof that everybody can benefit from that framework that has been created to connect everybody globally. And yet you can still be the local shop to your community.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Absolutely. People ask me all the time, is there still opportunity on Amazon? Because you go on there, there's so many thousands upon thousands of products, and people think, I can't compete with that. They're already dominant in this market segment, or this guy's already dominant over here. But that's not really true. Where there's still so much opportunity is in the niches. There are so many products that if I tried to sell a specialty good at the store down the street from me, there might not be enough people in my town who want that specialty item. But if you look at the United States market or the global market, there's certainly enough people who want that specialty item. And what I also find really exciting is the opportunity to go to local manufacturers, local businesses find their products and put them on Amazon so they're available globally. Because it's really difficult here in the States, and I'm sure it is where you are in the UK as well. If you're a manufacturer, you can't just go to Walmart and say, hey, put my product in your store. It is not that easy. It's very difficult to get placement, but you can go put your product on Amazon today.

{( speakerName('A') )}

And that's it. The rulebook has changed completely, hasn't it? And those that like the Walmart of the world that you mentioned there, Leslie, that have these hoops and red tape to go through to get your product stocked, having to rethink their business model because that's where their competition is taking over the market share. So I think it's fascinating how the dynamic has shifted and it's really giving power back to the seller.

{( speakerName('B') )}

It provides so much opportunity because, for example, imagine that you want to buy a black shirt. So, like I'm wearing today, I want to buy this black shirt. So I go down to the Walmart or the Target or the specialty clothing store where I live. How many different black shirts do I have to choose from that are in my size? What I might find two, maybe three, maybe none. If it's a small store, you go on Amazon. Oh, my goodness. You can find dozens of all different cuts, short sleeve, long sleeve, the ones that flounce out at the bottom, and the ones that are fitted all the way through, and the ones for athletics and the ones for formal wear. So each of those shirts is a seller. It's someone who has grasped this opportunity to sell their specific product and market it to the country or to various marketplaces around the world. And that is not something that existed. I often say Amazon is the greatest business incubator in the history of the world because you can have an idea and you can launch it on Amazon for five or ten thousand dollars. Where else can you do that? Where else can you manufacture small run and really find out if your product will work?

{( speakerName('A') )}

I bet there's a lot of people out there that know or have experienced themselves that pit, that black hole that your money goes down when you have got a new product that the next million dollar bank balance, and it just flops. And this is where, for me, it's super exciting that there are companies like you that are able to help use platforms like Amazon to their success. What would you say is the sort of first real thing that they've got to do? If anybody's thinking about using Amazon as a platform to sell their products?

{( speakerName('B') )}

The first thing to think about is that even though it is a virtual business, it is running online. You have to set it up the exact same way you would set up a traditional business. You cannot say, oh, just because I'm running this out of my house or my basement or the back of my storefront, that it's not a real business. You need to register your business, you need to set up good bookkeeping, you need to have a tax accountant, you need to set up that, if that's relevant, where you are located. You have to do all of the right things because the pitfall a lot of newer sellers fall into is that they will not know their numbers, so they won't find out if they have made or lost money until they close the books at the end of the year. They don't close their books monthly, they don't track their expenses well. Most of them, they are chasing the awesome deal, they're on a treasure hunt to find the product they're going to sell that's going to change the world or change their world and they get so excited about it, but then they don't track all of the overhead and all of the mileage and all of the other expenses and their own time. They don't value their own time and know how many dozens or hundreds of thousands of hours they've spent. And the last thing that you want is, at the end of the year, you should close your books monthly. But a lot of people, they don't. They close them at the end of the year and discover that they've lost, as you would say, a packet. And what do you do? You've lost all of this money. It's a terrible position to be in, but something that happens all the time. So step one really, is set it up like any traditional business with good books and following all of your local regulations so that you're not playing catch up later.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yeah, I mean, you make a really good point, actually, Leslie, because there are some that would say it's inevitable that as a startup there's going to be an element of lost leader that you can expect to lose money. And I think that that is true, but only to a point. It's going to be the difference between 5% loss leader to not making a dime, which is not what people want. So I think it's great advice to say set it up properly, do your figures first before you start, because really you're setting yourself some expectations as well, aren't you, in terms of what you want to achieve. You don't go into business to expect to lose.

{( speakerName('B') )}

And if you also set goals at the same time, some of your goals are not positive goals. Some of your goals are recognising when to say stop. So let's say you're developing three products that you want to sell online and one of them is terrible. The numbers are terrible, it's not selling, it's not moving. You're spending a lot on advertising, nothing's happening. I like to call those ugly babies...

{( speakerName('A') )}

(Laughs) sorry that' my sense of humor there, leslie...

{( speakerName('B') )}

Everyone thinks their baby is beautiful and you would never tell someone else that their baby is ugly. But there are some ugly babies. And when you have an ugly baby, you cannot just keep pouring money into it. You have to say stop. So let the two products that are doing well thrive and the one ugly baby, it's time to let it go and let go of that dream and say, can't do it anymore. So both the positive goals and the negative goals are super important so that you direct not because you're going to fail. We're not planning to fail, but we're planning to direct our capital and energy where they're actually being successful.

{( speakerName('A') )}

I get exactly what you're saying there and sometimes it's about timing, don't you think, that that ugly baby... we're not by any means suggesting a cull on ugly babies because if we were to start there, we wouldn't know where to draw the line. But it's true, isn't it, that there could be a really good idea that you have that is just not going to work out, then. It's maybe that you need to shelve it. Know to shelve it to not let the pretty children prop it up because take the money because that's what's going to help you grow. And it's likely that there could be another opening in the market a little later on and you go, well, that's actually grown up to be quite a beautiful thing and can just slot that straight in now. We've done a lot of the legwork and it's on the shelf ready to just dust off.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Absolutely. And also what you might find out is it's a great product, but for some reason, either because people don't know they need it yet or because there is competition or dominance by an inferior product, that it's something that you're going to have to invest more branding and advertising in. And when you're just starting out, it's really tough to pull those dollars together and throw it into advertising and branding. So once you've launched other products, you've got some cash flow, things are going well. Yes. It might be time to relaunch that and say, okay, if I've got some ad dollars, some PPC behind it, we can make it succeed.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yeah, it's that leap of faith that can't quite be so blind. It's a subtlety isn't it? A subtlety to be able to notice and be aware of when that right time is.

{( speakerName('A') )}

So Leslie, what other advice have you got for people on Amazon? What's the most common challenge that you end up helping your customers out with?

{( speakerName('B') )}

So one thing that you started out talking about was this idea of buying local and thinking global. And so many of my clients, they really struggle to sell products that everyone else isn't already selling. My business, we help people who their company or their products have been suspended from Amazon. Amazon has taken them down. They're not letting them sell. We help them get reinstated. Well, a lot of them, the reasons that they get taken down are related to their product sourcing. They are drop shipping in a way you're not supposed to. Or they get intellectual property complaints from big brands that they're reselling. And a lot of them are so frustrated because they're buying wholesale, they're buying from large distributors, and they're essentially trying to sell what everyone else is trying to sell. And when there's a whole lot of people selling the same thing as you might imagine, the prices drop and drop and drop and drop and eventually your margins are almost nothing. Or you even end up selling at a loss just to get rid of the inventory. So one of my favorite strategies to tell people to try out is to go to places near where they live. So here in the states, we call them business parks. I'm sure you have something similar where it's a lot of light industrial warehouse office space where there's a whole lot of businesses together and people are doing light manufacturing near you. Almost everyone who lives in a town of any kind of size has one of these business parks where there's light manufacturing. Go visit those folks, because a lot of them are selling wholesale or selling to distributors or selling b to b. And those products could be sold online, but they're not interested in trying to get it on Amazon. That's not what they do. They're focused on the manufacturing side. So I have clients who've been very successful by going to local businesses, establishing relationships, and saying, hey, make me your exclusive online seller for your brand. I will create the listing detail pages. I will send the inventory to the Amazon warehouse. I will make it all run Give me your best wholesale pricing. Let me do returns for your items that don't sell. That's the key right there. Just in case. Let me advertise it online. And what you've essentially created is an exclusive distribution agreement for yourself with these brands. And most of the brands love it. They want to be on Amazon because they want that volume. But they don't want to do the work. And so they'll be thrilled to sell to you at a great price and have this good relationship. And it's a way that you can get local products from your community online to sell all across your country. And then if you decide to go to other countries as well, you can have their products selling all around the world. And you're not competing with every Tom, Dick and Harry selling the same widget that you bought from a wholesaler or a distributor.

{( speakerName('A') )}

It's great for anybody that's got a product that they're selling online to actually just build a portfolio. And it also backs up a lot of the conversations we've already had with previous guests on the show is you go to the person that is the expert in something to get that part of the business working for you. Not everybody is interested in all of the details about running a business. We use an accountant, we use a solicitor. We will go to the tax advisor. We will go to a copywriter or a web designer. And this is kind of fitting into the same sort of piece of the puzzle of having somebody that understands how to use Amazon to sell more stuff. I'm already thinking of a couple of people that I know I'm going, I could do that for them. I don't know how, but I could.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Well, and you don't even have to know all the details anymore. Exactly like what you were just saying. There are companies that do listing optimization where they'll make the listing detail pages look beautiful and do the enhanced brand content for you. There are companies that will create the videos. There are companies that will help you to do all of these pieces and parts of selling on Amazon. And you can outsource the pieces you don't understand yet. You can learn from those people and then do them yourselves or continue to outsource. There are large firms, companies like mine, and then there are virtual assistants. There are VA's all over the world that will help you with all of the bits and pieces of Amazon.

{( speakerName('A') )}

It just seems like an opportunity not to be missed.

{( speakerName('B') )}

I judge by Amazon's Prime membership and their Prime membership is hundreds of millions of people globally, which is mind boggling. Here in the United States, I believe that they claim one hundred and sixty million prime members and our population is three hundred and fifty million. So when you think about that, it's mind blowing. You're talking about almost all the households because some households have two, three, four, five, six people, right? So massive numbers of people who are members of Amazon. If you are a member, then that is your preferred shopping destination. That's where you're going to go first. And you love the prime shopping and the quick delivery and all those other good things. So it's a captive audience that other people get to use. Since there's a marketplace and the real challenge with launching a new brand, there's so much direct to consumer that popped up over during Covid and D2C can be very powerful if you have the money to advertise like crazy and get people to your own website or your shopify store. But for regular old people like you and me, gosh, I don't know about you, but I don't have a $10 million advertising budget, so I would much rather go spend my limited ad dollars where there's a captive audience on Amazon.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yeah, I mean, I would have a 10 million pound advertising budget if I had a billion pound in the bank. Right? So that's the thing. But Amazon marketplace has become like the shopping equivalent to Google, hasn't it? You do your research there, because it's not just about the amount of products that you can find and refine your searches down. It's all of those users that are prompted to put their reviews and their comments and what they found of it. And is this seller good enough so you can go, I only want a five star seller. I want between this bracket of price range. So all of those things, because it's not the brand telling us how brilliant they are. These are consumers like us telling us how brilliant it is and who are we going to believe more?

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yes, but there are so many problems with fake reviews. That is something to be careful of, however.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Okay, Lesley, come on, tell us.

{( speakerName('B') )}

But everywhere that there's a problem on Amazon, there pops up a solution. It's just like how we exist for sellers who have been suspended. There are software tools you can actually add. There's add ons that you can put onto your browser that show you how many of the reviews are real. So there's something called Fake Spot, and it will tell you that this is really a one star product because we perceive that all of these reviews are fake. But generally speaking, you can read through the most recent reviews, and usually you can tell a lot of fake reviews come from other countries outside of jurisdictions where it's easy for Amazon and things like in the US, we have the Federal Trade Commission where it's difficult for them to enforce against somebody or sue somebody. So, like in Russia, for example, there's a whole lot of these click farms where they create fake reviews. It's a thing.

{( speakerName('A') )}

I thought that was just for sitting on the sofa and watching the movies. Lesley.

{( speakerName('B') )}

There's a shady side of Amazon. There are sellers on Amazon who use what we call black hat tactics, including going after other sellers. It can be a difficult place. And that's all the more reason going back to our theme, Wendy, that is all the more reason to try and find local businesses that want their products on Amazon, because then you're competing against a market segment, but you're not competing on the exact same products.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yes.

{( speakerName('B') )}

So you're separating yourself from that potential competitor who's going to come after you because they're cut throat and you're trying to sell the exact same product.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yeah, that big fish. Big fish in a small pond. The shark tactics, all of those things that if you are going to be using that by local think global, really, you're supporting the heart of your own community. And this is something that is a big debate in the UK, certainly, because we've got shopping centers that are on the periphery of the town, so people are not necessarily going into towns. And there's a big sort of swell of emotion about reinvigorating our high streets and being able to go into the cities and things like this, but I think the experience of things has changed and we've just got to keep up with that. And I think that goes more into planning and time planning than anything else, which is a slightly different conversation to the one we're having today. But if you can be at the heart of your own community and helping that one factory generate more units output, the chances are that will increase employment. That means that there'll be more people with more money spending it in their community. It's really a win win, isn't it?

{( speakerName('B') )}

It is. And let me throw out another really fun idea for someone who's interested in this concept of finding the local manufacturers. I know someone here in Texas who got the idea to sell an item that's manufactured here, but then to license a well known brand to add to it. So be thinking about if you're selling an item in the pet category, what kind of licensing can you put on that? Or if it's in the clothing category, what kind of licensing can you get for that? You can get a well known brand name and you can pay them and they will let you put their logo on your item if it's a relevant item. And wow, all of a sudden you're dominating a category where you would have just been another seller. There's so many opportunities for this as well. And I know that doesn't look local, but it is still your local manufacturing. You've just used someone's brand name to get you to the forefront in search results and people wanting to buy the item.

{( speakerName('A') )}

That's a really smart idea. I'm just wondering how many of our listeners have got ideas just from listening to this conversation. Go on. Get on your email, get on the social media platforms and send us some ideas of what you're going to do. You might not want to actually reveal the whole thing, but just let us know that it's invigorated and sparked some kind of idea. That would be fantastic.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Lesley, I know we've talked a lot about Amazon. Is there anything else that you think that listeners ought to know?

{( speakerName('B') )}

So when you choose to sell on Amazon, you are choosing to sell in a theifdom. They are their own universe, they have their own rules. Just because you think it should run a certain way. That doesn't mean that's how it runs. So if you decide to sell on Amazon, spend the time to watch their videos. They have called Seller University. Read the rules, especially if you're in any kind of category that could have legal implications that some jurisdiction may not like. There's all kinds of things that you can't sell on Amazon, even if they are legal to sell where you live. So just be very careful and read the rules and understand what you're getting into. It takes some investment of time. There's a lot of videos out there made by people in this industry who will teach you how to sell online, take the time and really learn about it, just to make sure that you don't make a mistake that's going to get you in trouble or make you lose money. And then if you get in trouble now, you know who to call.

{( speakerName('A') )}

I think you're the First Lady I'd be calling instead of watching all those videos. I don't think I can think of anything worse to do. But it is really good advice. And we are in that world now, aren't we, of having as much information as we want or need and more at our fingertips through video tutorials and things like that.

{( speakerName('A') )}

So it kind of brings us quite nicely to the part of the show that I'm always waiting to get to. Where I ask every guest to share that one conversation that changed their life, either in business or personally. So, Lesley, what have you got for us?

{( speakerName('B') )}

So mine changed my life in business and personal all in one fell swoop. I think that's how a lot of entrepreneurs operate, that it's all one big clump. We don't have business over here and personal over here. It's all together. So I'm sure that most people have seen some kind of a TV drama, that's a medical drama, where a bad thing has happened, and they take the family in that little room. So my husband and I were taken in the little room while our son, who was eight years old at the time, was on the operating table and having a lump removed from his neck, that we had been assured prior to surgery that it was nothing, it was nothing to worry about. It was a swollen lymph nodes. Sometimes they don't go down. We just have to get it out because you don't want to leave it in there. And the surgery was supposed to be 30 minutes and about an hour and a half in. They took us to the little room where we waited another hour before the doctor came in and said, he's in great shape, and that's the last good thing that I'm going to tell you today, that they had already diagnosed him with cancer and that they had already scheduled us for a consult with the oncologist in a week, and they had already scheduled his Pet scan. Thank goodness we have a children's hospital. They had already planned everything before they even told us the news. So he was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma at that moment, and it was not expected at all. And the long term effects on me as a person and a business owner and someone who tries to help people have been bigger than I ever would have expected.

{( speakerName('A') )}

How long ago was this then, Lesley?

{( speakerName('B') )}

So I'm thrilled to say it was six years ago. And he is 14 and he is over 6ft tall and two hundred pounds of muscle and he plays baseball and football. He is extremely healthy. But our family has changed so much. I had a sense of entitlement before that I didn't even realise I had. And I've come to understand we aren't entitled to anything, not even healthy children. We've met so many other families in our community and now we volunteer with some organisations that help kids with cancer and families with cancer. And we are the best off people of our group. There are so many families who their kids die or they have lifelong health problems. And I've had to accept also that my kid, because of the treatment he received, he will not live as long as his peers. But then you change how you raise them and say, we're going to get out of life what we're going to get out of it right now. You're not going to wait until you're 30 to do the things you want to do. He's very aggressive about doing what he wants to do. He wants to be a meteorologist and he is a storm chaser. So here we live in Texas and we are very close to one of the tornado alleys in the world. And just last week, he and my husband were out storm chasing and spotted seven possible tornadoes. Two that were confirmed, got in a huge hailstorm. This is what they do. And what's really fun is that this 14 year old kid is well known now in this community of storm chasers. And he even has other chasers who follow him because he's so good at it. And that is his dream. And we're not saying you're not going to do that until you're 25. He's doing it right now and learning and growing. And he even streams live for a weather station sometimes. I mean, he is living the dream. But my husband and I have also really learned to be more focused on helping other people. And I will tell you, in my business, this is why it changed me for business. We work with people who are losing their company. If Amazon suspends you, a lot of people, they only sell on Amazon and they are losing their entire business. They are laying off family members. They are not making their house payments. It's a horrifying situation. And I can talk to a client who does a billion dollars a year on Amazon and is afraid of laying off hundreds of people and be their calm space. It takes so much to rattle me now because when you face your biggest fear, you can face other fears and face them with other people. So it has made me very calm in my business and I've taught my consultants that same level of calm and reassuring and what we are supposed to be for clients and it helps them when they're going through what for them is the worst thing they've ever faced in many cases.

{( speakerName('A') )}

I can certainly see why, from a personal point of view as well, why that name really rang true for you. Because it's been born from facing that situation.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yes, and it's funny, I have clients who I've known personally for many years, and they know the situation my family has been through, and some of them even know my kids. My older kid is on the autism spectrum and he's been a challenge. So we've been through the meat grinder with both of these boys, who fortunately have both turned out great so far.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Our family is so much stronger and closer as well. But these clients come to me and they'll say, I feel silly telling you that this is keeping me up at night because this is nothing like your problems. And I tell them, everyone's problems matter. Whatever you're going through at the moment is upsetting and terrible. It doesn't have to be the worst problem in the world for it to knock you for a loop and you don't know what to do. So the goal is always to just walk with those clients and let them know they're not alone. Selling on Amazon is also kind of isolating because you don't know someone on every corner who is an Amazon seller. It's not like an accountant where there's a local accountant organization and they all go have lunch. You're kind of on your own. And so we really want people to know that we are there, we're with them. They can call us, they can talk to us. You're not alone, and we're going to figure out how to make it better.

{( speakerName('A') )}

I reckon you've just come up with an idea there and you don't even know it. But there should be an Amazon association for sellers.

{( speakerName('B') )}

So there are some Facebook groups out there, there are some LinkedIn groups out there that people actively participate in. And then my favorite thing is that there are conferences, so I go speak at some conferences. We're actually having our own conference coming up soon, in September. So I think those are important opportunities for people to get together and actually talk about their problems and learn from other people. And a lot of them end up being like drinking from a fire hose. There's so much information that's just hitting you the whole time, but you pick and choose the things you want to learn that time around and it's invigorating. It's really great to get to be around other sellers and vent and learn and also to talk about your personal problems because entrepreneurship is hard.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Well, I would imagine as well that your personal situation has been what steered you around the riverbend into your own business life. And there's going to be another story behind the next person and the next person and the next person. That's going to have been the cause and effect.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Absolutely. Everyone has their story and everyone has their challenges. And also, entrepreneurs are kind of my people. The small businesses we work with, they're my people, and they are the same as I am. It's the business and the personal is so close together. You can't pull the two apart because you're feeding one to make the other one happen. Right. You're doing the entrepreneurship to take care of your family the way that you want to. And I think that when you're with your people, you can help each other in ways that others don't necessarily understand. And no shade being thrown on working in a traditional business, having a traditional job, it's all just different ways to take care of ourselves. But there's special challenges with that. Just like there's special challenges with entrepreneurship and entrepreneurs, they are a little harder to track down and find your tribe.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yeah. Oh, Lesley. I wasn't expecting that at all. but I can't thank you enough, honestly, for sharing so much value and insight into the world of Amazon and how to navigate that path or that river, should I say. So, once again, Lesley, thank you so much for joining us today.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Thank you. This has been a lot of fun.